Never got around to doing a write-up on another Ozzy video from our previous Black Sabbath conversation. Still havent around much actual footage or referenced quotes of Geezer talking about what is and isn't metal but I was following the quotes from Ozzy in a previous post found here:

And I found this video (Skip to the 1:00 mark for the interview)



I'll try to do a full write up on this video later because I think it's interesting and want to discuss a few things from it even though most of them arent in the whole metal conversation. I think there are a lot of legitimate points that Ozzy brings up about music in general but also about other aspects of his life. Enjoy!

From the biggest, most reliable metal encyclopedia on the internet:

http://www.metal-archives.com/news/view/id/118

"Best to avoid (adding metalcore bands) altogether."

Aye, I've been surfing through a bit of Encyclopedia Mettalum cause it pops up a ton, was hoping to see some mention of the rest of that interview I linked a few days back that got cut short, or to find some sort of solid evidence regarding your claimed Geezer quote but haven't turn up much of anything.

I dont really see how Morrigan gets to hold any sway on choosing what is and isnt metal though...hell I'd say that Ozzy's comments were closer to supporting your view since he helped found the genre, but I dont see anh mention anywhere of who Morrigan is or what sort of position or schooling she has in the matter of music. She co-founded a fan website, sure, but that doesnt give her any right to classify music.

If you quoted that whole blurb you liked to though, you'd see that Morrigan says the rules allow metalcore that is more metal than core, and that not every band labeled metalcore need be reported constantly without using common sense and a bit of tact. It seems that even she understands that the lines between music generes are not black and white but several shades of grey, and that music is fluid and constantly changing.

Check out what Ozzy was saying in the post above about how not every song that he put out would be considered metal and that he thinks its sad because certain stations would never play some of his stuff because it wasnt heavy metal enough. And that not every song on an album will always be heavy metal but thats okay because people like different things for different reasons.

On a slightly amusing note I found a quote by Geezer Butler saying that he "Never considered Black Sabbath a metal band, just really heavy blues". But im trying to find something a little more credible that just a random quote oit of context.

Encyclopedia Metallum is not just a "fan website". it is the most complete, reliable, comprehensive encyclopedia of metal bands put out to date. It is the benchmark to which metal bands are judged.

Bands like Asking Alexandria are absent from M-A not because of personal bias from the moderators, but because THEY SIMPLY, MUSICALLY ARE NOT METAL. M-A has set aside clear, consistent rules on the matter. A band must be musically, more metal than core (which proves they are two separate genres) to be included. The ONLY exception is non-metal projects in direct relation to (such as non-metal solo bands by) metal artists.

You are sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalala", and being a (removed for fear of warning) about it.

Also, for the record: nobody ever listens to Ozzy. He was always the "little kid" of the band a had little if any creative input.

Ozzy was the only member of Black Sabbath that remotely supoorted your claims actually. Every member of Sabbath mentions in numerous interviews things that directly contradict you; Every member of the band grew up loving The Beatles and other pop bands and has no issues with muaic that isnt metal nor were they waging the 'war' that metal fans like you carry out these days. The band changed their name due to another band having the same name and causing scheduling issues, not to signify theyre rebirth into metal like you said. And I've not found a shred a proof to your quotes by Geezer.

Cause everyone hasn't heard it enough on the radio.

They had no issue with such music, yes, but they also wanted to create different music. They wanted to go in a darker, not-as-poppy direction after they recorded a pop-rock song that a producer had written for them, "The Rebel". They didn't want to record songs like that anymore.

http://www.black-sabbath.com/faq/faq.html#faq17

Read the Vertigo Records Press release for the first album, dated 1970. "Musically, they are mpletely uncompromising, and would rather starve than sell out to more commercial forms of music." (pop)

Also, read the introduction at the beginning of the article. It describes Geezer's disdain towards "cash back commercialism" and "singalong choruses" leading to "throwaway tunes" (ie: attributes of pop music); and also describing how the entire spirit of the band was birthed from this darker, slummier, blackened direction. Simply WHERE THEY CAME FROM (the poverty-ridden section of Birmingham England) helped shape the band into the anti-consumerist, anti-corporate entity they (and by extension, metal) became.

On mobile but will elaborate more later.

You keep using logical fallacies though to try and twist things to fit your personal view. For example "Musically, they are completely uncompromising, and would rather starve than sell out to more commercial forms of music" doesnt mention pop at all, and yet you purport that its aimed at pop. You yourself earlier used the argument that having certain attributes of something doesnt make it that thing. (in your comments about metalcore) Well it works the same way... Them disliking commercial music, and a lot of pop music being commerial, does not instantky equal to them disliking pop. They dislike commercial music... theres commercial pop, commerical rock, commerial country and even commercial metal.

Ill get to reading the press release once I'm home, and thanks for finally linking some articles and stuff , but like I was talking about earlier by their own words their sound was focused on being harder and louder not on darker or to bash other types of music, and they had a darker style to bring awareness to a lot of the current events going on like war not on satanic messages like a loy of people assumed.

Pop music, is by definition, commercialized music. That's not even taking quality into account. But music with a typical verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge/solo-chorus construction, sing-songy, easily accessible choruses, saccharine sweet melodies, is commercialized music. Pop music is different from other genres in that its not really a genre in and of itself; its more of a supergenre, much like how legendary is a supertype that can be applied to every card type.

The caveat, is that there are some genres that are so musically and ideologically opposite, that the two simply CANNOT mesh. In the same way Christian music CANNOT be applied to black metal (since what makes black metal what it is, is not just musical aspects, but ideological ones as well; black metal IS the embodiment of misanthropy, nihilism, and antichristianity... and when you apply pro-Christian themes to black metal, it utterly ceases to be black metal), pop, commercial musical tropes do NOT mesh with metal (metal being the embodiment of dissonance, minor, non-saccharine chords, atypical riff layout and song construction).

As for Sabbath, what makes them (and by extension, metal) what it is, is musically, the unconventional arrangements, the abrupt tempo changes, which were actually looked down upon in pop music of the time; and lyrically, the darker worldview: not Satanism, but the "the world is going to hell, people are the cause, no amount of hippy-dippy flowers nd rainbows attitude is going to change this", which is diametrically opposed to the intended "feelgood" nature popular/commercial music is supposed to have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Pay particular attention to things like 'affirming the consequent' and 'fallacy of composition'. Now I'm not saying that your position in this particular debate is wrong because you used fallacies, I'm just saying from here forward lets both try to avoid falling into logical fallacies. Anyway...

Firstly, pop music tends to be commercial you seem to think that the words are interchangeable, and that's simply not the case. Secondly, you keep taking what you think metal is about and applying it to all metal, anything that doesn't meet what you think of when you think of metal you choose to write off as not being 'true' metal or not being metal at all... this too, is simply not the case as your opinions hold no weight on the definitions nor do you hold a position that would allow you hold such sway. No offense intended, but do you have any musical training? Attended any classes, hold a degree, or in some sort of accredited fashion studied music? Or are you putting forth the claims simply from hours logged sitting at home and listening to a particular type of music?

So if someone came along and posted this:

The Butt isnt of any authority to say "They are not true metal" , its simply his opinion.



I'm not trying to fall into the error of using ad homien and say "You're not a music professor, therefore your opinion is wrong" rather trying to say "Your opinions don't get to set the definitions".

So lets look at a few definitions of metal:



There's nothing in there saying that Heavy Metal cannot have a verse-chorus-verse-chorus construction or sing-songy, easily accessible choruses and nothing saying that it has to be against commercial music or that it has to hate what is popular. In fact I could go snag quite a few songs from bands that founded the genre and you'll find that they use verse-chorus-verse-chorus and choruses that are easy to understand and sing along to and as shown by the Sabbath interviews they were going for a heavy, louder, sound and not striking out against artists playing pop like you keep claiming. Just because you like metal that does not use these qualities, does not mean that anything not using these qualities is not metal (affirming the consequent) and just becuase some metal is against these qualities does not mean that all metal is (fallacy of composition).

The argument can be made in fact that metal seeking to wage this war against other types of music could be considered commercial music (not that all music isn't commercial to some degree) because some bands specifically display those attributes because it panders to that crowd and will sell a lot of tickets and black t-shirts. *shrug*

The band linked above is absolutely hilarious, and this thread needs more of it.

Quit the Metal bickering, grab a beer and enjoy the contest.

I am not saying that Sabbath (or metal) is/was out to "start a war" against pop music. That is absurd. But part of whatakes the genre what it is, are diametrically opposed to pop music practices. Metal is meant to be sloppy, have rawer production, and not be so easily accessible. Even Black Sabbath uses compositional practices that were looked down upon and laughed at by critics of popular music of the time, such as abrupt tempo changes, and unconventional song structures, and the abundance of buzzsaw power chords.

When you introduce pop attributes (crystal clear, sterilizing production jobs, formulaic songwriting, a "feelgood" dancy sound) to metal, it ceases to be metal. It is the same as Christianity and black metal. And don't go telling me that Christian black metal can exist, because it cannot. The genre's inherent ideology prevents and prohibits this. Black metal is ideologically about misanthropy, nihilism, and an inherent hate towards Christianity. When you introduce pro-Christian themes to black metal, it ceases to be black metal. It looks like black metal, it sounds like black metal, and many people wrongfully consider it black metal; but it simply isn't.

You can't simply analyze music in a vacuum based on **** dictionary definitions. Try reading books about it, written by authors who have dedicated their lives to analyzing the genre. I've dedicated 10+ years to doing just that. As I said, I know thousands of bands. I've delved into metal bands from every country, as well as their cultural impacts. Your knowledge of metal is one one-thousanth of mine. Go read some books at your local library: Its sort of a blur, as I've read so many books about metal now, but from what I remember, How Black Was Our Sabbath is a good one to start.

You didn't listen to the Zappa, did you?

I'm not a big Zappa fan. I like the song "Flakes" though.

Check that one out.
Bet you smile.

Haha, it was pretty great. Well done Wuster, you posted a Zappa song I enjoy

You have a problem here, The Butt, because it doesn't matter how many books you've read, your arguments are really unconvincing. You don't use any sort of evidence to back your assertions up, but keep asking to just be trusted because you've read a lot of books and listened to a lot of bands. You're unlikely to win an argument this way.

I think you've got one thing right - you shouldn't analyse genres based on dictionary definitions. The trouble is that you've been basing your argument on your own personal dictionary definition of what constitutes metal throughout the conversation. Even if you cared to reference some highly influential metal musician to back this definition up, it wouldn't really matter because that's not how labels work. The purpose of a label such as metal is for use as a descriptive tool, to help somebody explain what a piece of music sounds like to someone who hasn't heard it. Therefore it has its set of characteristics and traits, but these aren't specified by a few guys who have some sort of special qualification like, say, being credited with originating the genre. They're an amalgamation of popular opinion - this is the only way in which a label can serve its purpose. If popular opinion is that metalcore is a variety of metal, then a variety of metal it is, whether you, or Black Sabbath, like it or not.

Personally I've spent many years of my life studying music - I have two music degrees, one a general study in music, one a study in composition. None of it really touched on metal at all, but I am well trained in listening to music - recognising themes, techniques, etc - and I must say that what metalcore I've heard sounded pretty metal to me. It is indeed very poppy also, and maybe metal was a reaction against pop in the beginning, but genres change and grow with time. We now have music with many hallmarks of metal, with pop influences and values mixed in. If I was trying to explain it to somebody who hadn't heard it then I'd be using the word metal, and I'd wager that most other people would do likewise. If this is true, then metal it inarguably is.

I.. actually really like both of these songs you've posted. It's a perfect combination of goofy and dark seriousness.


To break away from the metal "discussion": do you guys have any particular songs that you just HAVE to blare?