Can you elaborate on this a little more? Because several players have pointed out serious flaws of logic in alt's back and forth with me, and I think you're the first person to argue his actions lean town. It's also odd that our initial issue with alt is how little he justified his posts, and your support of him is also baseless--"his back and forth... [leans] more towards town..." doesn't strike me as very sound.

This is the exact reason I focused on Fire last game - he was aggressive, and, I mis-interpreted it, thinking he was acting scummy, not scum hunting, which is what it ended up being.

Alt explained (at least enough to me) why Shock's massclaim idea could benefit town. Yeah, they could both be scum, working together, but I just don't get that feeling - of course, I could be wrong here.



Can you provide links to that? From what I'm seeing, he's accusing you, you're accusing him. I'm still not sure if I see any flaws.

So, I voted for you, rather than provide any information as to why you are town, you deflected to Alt. To me, that adds more weight to my decision - I know when I've been voted for in the past, my first reaction is to defend myself, rather than point at someone else.

Again, D1 is tough - there's no vote history to go on, and we have no actual information yet. You could both be town, both be scum, one of each - but, for now, IMO, you seem like a bigger suspect to me. If you do happen to flip town, then I'll have to look harder at Alt (and a few others).

As for his editing quotes - it was (again IMO) done in a way to make light of the situation, to try and avoid some of the issues that we've seen in the past games where someone felt they were getting jumped all over - the more I think about it, since the last game was HW (scum) vs SE (town) maybe that's suspect, I just think that Alt would use a less used tactic, since that's in everyone's mind now. (at least all of us that played the last game).

Taking everything else out of it, right now, it looks like you (rst) Alt and Shock are the leading candidates for a D1 lynch. Out of the three of you, I can interpret both Alt and Shock as scumhunting - you, on the other hand:








Arbitrary, not posting substance (by your own post) and trying to get me on your side (since I know I'm town) all seem to be standard scum tactics.

So, again, maybe my wording is bad, it's not so much that Alt is leaning town, but more that you seem to be leaning mafia. And, since the decision is starting to look like it's down to you and Alt, I'm going with who appears to be more scummy, and doing less scum hunting.

So, just for clarification, no matter who gets lynched I'm a suspect because.... I commented on their bickering? Well then, that's a new angle to play. No offense but I saw this particular strategy last game out of Hello World and he flipped town, though admittedly he managed to play that particular card much better.

~SE++

@Elijin: And as I said, you bring something new, I'll respond to it. Your over-dramatizing my unwillingness to filibuster. Ceral Killer isn't looking for information, he's looking to argue. There's an enormous difference. If he really had a case against me, he would have voted me. Instead, and this is speculation, he is trying to make me look bad so that other people don't trust me.
Think of this...
If he were mafia, he would want to neutralize the town's MVP. Or put in other words, mafia wants to get rid of experienced players and keep the inexperienced ones. There are two ways to do that:
1) They can night kill. If mafia want someone out of the game, this is the most direct route. But it also draws a lot more attention. "That person died, who was he or she suspecting". That is attention that mafia don't want which leads to...
2) Invalidating the town MVP. If they can get people to distrust the MVP, why do they need to kill them? They can usentheir night kill on another unincriminating person while the MVP is ignored.

I'm certainly not claiming myself to be MVP, and it also isn't always an experienced player. Look at HW and squinty last game. Mafia had that game in the bag until the mod kill.

Again, Cereal Killer refrains from voting me despite his arguments against me not being 'baseless'. People need to start asking why. Why, with all his evidence against me, hasn't he chosen to vote for me?

Sorry, just woke up.

~SE++

Well...honestly, everyone is a suspect. However:



So - Hello World didn't flip town, he was mafia. Honest mistake, or something else?

Like I said, I'll be more inclined to look at you if Alt flips mafia.

Fake edit - OK, so, honest mistake. I'll give you the benefit since you corrected it before I had a chance to post...

Yeah, sorry. I'm gonna be out all day today, and I'm actually up fairly early considering both me and my wife work 2nd shift jobs... but I wanted to put my two cents in before I left for the day. And apparently my phone wasn't letting me post to NGA yesterday (I could respond to my Sandbox at all), so I'm trying to say "hi" to the threads before I might not even be able to post for the next 16 hours.

~SE++

Here ya go buddy:







If you include me, then that adds up to 4 people that have some problem with alt's posts, which I assume equates "several." The people who have responded that I might be scum as a result are you, who didn't really post during this exchange (or very little--I don't remember), and squinty_eyes, who I implied could be scum. The only other person I called scum was Shock, and that was a joke. As much as you can say admitting to posting something arbitrary is scummy, it's pretty much a blatant fact. I didn't switch to a "serious" vote on alt until after he has relentlessly pursued me as scum, revealing a stark contrast to how he treated squinty. That shift in behavior means something, and it's the crux of the issue here. You either believe alt's pursuit of me is justified by my asking him to explain himself, or you believe that his pursuit is way too aggressive and out of the blue.

Alternatively, he's trying to get me lynched because I posted a photo of a murderous chef. In which case, he loses points for not acknowledging irony.

Alternatively, he's trying to get me lynched instead of him because he doesn't want to die day 1.

Either way, you haven't clarified why you sided with him. And this whole "referencing the other game(s)" thing strikes me as irrelevant, because it's just as easily to contextualize as it is to warp context.

*should've said, "...it's pretty much a blatant fact on day one page one and two that accusations are arbitrary..."

Let me think/read/digest this, and I should be able to respond later on today.

But thanks for the specific links - it's very helpful.

One thing that jumps out at me rather quickly is:


Which, is something I should have noticed and that I agree with. If someone is really going to take that type of approach, it's not helpful to the rest of the town.

While I think about it:

Unvote:

I like how murderous chef is your first alternate choice. Well-placed.

In any case, you forgot to mention that I suspect both you and cereal killer. And Elijin is worried about me shutting down more than logic in my plan.

Thus, your several has whittled down to less than four. You have to discount potential OMGUS suspicions and see what neutral parties think. Freddeh is your only definite support (per your listings) though, saying that, I'm fairly certain Garren or Elijin were suspicious of me, but you didn't post it. I can't quote from mobile, but I'll see if I can track it down for you...

@NeoSilk: While you review just note that he neglected to post the part where I explained my choice of wording. I didn't imply anything. I simply said I'm not going to argue.

@rstnme: I was thinking of Confused and Zherog, but it doesn't quite help because they both appear suspicious of both of us.

How long do we have left on day one? Since people are thinking not talking and throwing out reads and thoughts makes you scum I made a list of my thoughts up to this point that I was going to post but now I have to run to work. Will this day still be going when I get back?

On the off-chance it isn't:

Vote: Altimis

I'll post why and my other thoughts when I get back. Sorry about that.

Which is why I didn't group them as specifically having an issue solely with you, since that would imply they didn't have one with me, and that would be liiiiiiieeeees

I'm going to have to do a full reread of everything - I said it last game, but forgot, I need to start taking notes on everything...guess it's better to start now rather than a few days from now...

@Garren - the deadline is still a few days away (2/17) at some point that day...

I'm not saying more lynching, I'm saying more voting. Voting carries much more weight to it than just talking about someone being scum. Scum can hide behind words all they want, but Voting is where the truth of someones feelings lie. Its one reason I'm not completely sold on Alt yet, because hes not been afraid to vote for the most part (though his vote on Rst took longer than I'd like), but the way hes been doing things really bugs me, it could just be him attempting to be 'creative' as VT or something. Regardless, its more than I have on anyone else, and Day 1 is day 1.

Only had time to skim the last 20 posts or so, but I didn't see anything particularly pertinent.

I'm V/LA until Sunday night, so hopefully day doesn't end until then >_>.

Well mr. rstnme.
It seems you're in favor with them there then other folks.

When I go down, I hope you know I'm taking you with me. I can only presume I will see you six forums under, in whatever heavenly place the host saw fit to set aside for us.

My reads for the day...
Pre-test reads:
If Confused is mafia, Zherog is probably mafia. Cereal Killer might be mafia.

Post-test reads:
I think rstnme is mafia. Cereal Killer is more-than-likely mafia. Confused might be mafia.

Least suspicious people to me:
Shockwave07 and NeoSilk

I'm also very wary of Freddeh. Not because he voted for me, but because he's posted twice (If I Recall Correctly). Of course he posts as soon as I pull out a number. I'm still wary. Not suspicious, but wary.

Also, mr Cereal Killer sir,
If you'd like to note that my Pre-test reads were written as a (relatively) testable hypothesis. Which I tested. I found my results and altered my suspicions accordingly. I started getting flak for my methods and have, since, put further testing on hold. Which now Elijin doesn't like. Note: I don't like it either.
My suspicions are far from baseless. That (obviously) doesn't mean they are right, but they most certainly aren't baseless. If I were given enough space to properly test my results, I could get even MORE accurate results. This is also the reason that I haven't voted for you (in case you were wondering). If I change too many variables the test would become useless. And as such, posting these results publicly has removed any chance of getting further results from me; they'll be expecting it. I am for the most part useless for the remainder of the day until/unless something else comes up.

Though, a hint, the best way to test my results would be to lynch rstnme.
1) If you lynch me, and I'm town, your next target is (probably) one of either Cereal Killer and rstnme.
2) if you lynch me and I'm mafia hooray. But, what has he done besides argue with me (albeit less than Cereal Killer)?

3) If you lynch rstnme, and he's town. You are all suspicious of me and I'll die anyways.
4) You lynch rstnme and he's mafia. Hooray, you kept the most active person alive, are down a mafia, and I can continue to perform tests.

In summary, if you kill me, and I am mafia; town is worse off than if they kill rstnme, and he's mafia. The reason, I'm actively hunting.

Logic at it's finest.

Here's the first one, with just a list of votes/unvotes so far:



Here's some specific thoughts:
Here, Shock makes a statement but withholds his reasoning. Also mentions Alt is the strongest player


Here, CK does the same thing (the I'm not going to answer a question yet thing)

Here, CK answers the question (massclaim) saying it's a bad idea, for town.

Alt defends the massclaim idea. Mentions heat on shock, but is not convinced.

Rstnme says he has no good reason to vote for shock

Fel jumps in saying that Shock is a better candidate, but not enough to vote for

CK defends Shock's actions as "laying a trap" and points at Alt and Fel

Alt throws suspicion at Confused

Shock throws suspicion at Confused (relating to JaC when he was scum)

Alt lays a "trap" for SE

Alt does another "I'll share my thoughts later" post

CK defends Shock (again) and implies that Fel and Alt are acting scummy

Alt has a confusing post. Says he wants to look at 3 people, one of which is confused, but won't name the other 2. But, then goes on to mention CK and rstnme. Says confused has gone down in his list.

Now, up to this point, this is the first post that really, really jumps out at me:



So - work is calling, and I have to get back to my job, so I'll try and get the next few pages done later tonight (or this weekend, if I don't have time). But I feel this comment needs more looking at.

If I were scum, and a known experienced player of the game, I could see myself saying the exact same thing if people started voting for me. Saying that he's got more info, but is going to withhold it in case he gets lynched just throws up a red flag for me.

And, I see that Alt made more posts while I was typing up this mess...I'm going to submit without reading them, then look through them.

WHile I said that I'll get through the next few pages - I have been reading, just not trying to do this type of analysis - if nothing specifically changes my mind....we'll see.

unvote
vote: altimis

You just presented a summary that if both of you came up mafia, that its be less harmful for town that rst died, because you're hunting. But in that theoretical, you'd be leading us away from targets. If you pass that off as sound logic, I think we can live without your hunting skills.