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Poll ended at Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:39 pm
Yea 40%  40%  [ 2 ]
Nay 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Not As Is 40%  40%  [ 2 ]
Abstain 20%  20%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 5
Total voters : 5
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:26 am 
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It would be weirder if people didn't have strong feelings about their work and the project, and everyone around these parts does a remarkably good job of being assertive without being disrespectful.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:32 pm 
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I've Abstained for now. I've got to think over these new arguments. The time period in which I might be on Monday and Tuesday is sketchy, as there's a <0% certainty that I'll be capable of getting on. If I even do, I'll be putting Archivist duties first.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:59 pm 
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(I dunno, I didn't read any of that as confrontational)

I think I'm going with yes on this one. Raven's pretty much convinced me that this isn't any more potentially damaging than the narration of stories that almost certainly happened for the canon characters. Actually, the main thing I wanted to know was whether or not any information in canon directly contradicted Gideon being able to be here, and I don't think anything does. Pretty sure the timeline even works ok, because at the moment I'm assuming it's been a couple years since the Waste started opening up--otherwise there's not enough time for infrastructure to start being built--which means that there's time before Purifying Fire for Gideon to drop in here without having to deal with the planar ceiling.

I think these kind of cameos are probably ok as a general class.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:35 am 
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I will leave this vote open for another week. Considering my lateness, I will leave it until Tuesday, February 4.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:48 pm 
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The main problem, I think, stems from the uniqueness of Jakkard.

Thinking it out, Barinellos's argument has two key points: that we can't say that canon 'walkers have been to M:EM planes [for the chance of being contradicted by Wizards releasing a "this 'walker has only ever been to these planes" statement], and that a 'walker is inherently changed by the planes they visit and that inherently means canon can contradict what a 'walker learns on a M:EM plane.

Now, in response to the first, the key lies in whether Wizards would release any official statement to the order of "this 'walker has only been to these planes." The way I see it, Wizards would only release a statement to that extent for a newly ascended 'walker. While the idea that a 'walker may still be new to the multiverse is likely one we will see sometime, at this point they don't have a large enough backlog of neowalkers to do that any time soon (by which I mean I foresee it taking a number of years over several blocks and expansions before they're likely to do this), and it isn't likely to happen for their older established characters like the main 5 (furry, emo, necro, muscles, and fire) or any of the other big names from the early neowalker establishment. From a marketing standpoint, it makes sense for Wizards to say any walker has visited whatever plane for the purposes of the story/presentation - like how some reprints have the neowalkers' art on them.

The second, that 'walkers are changed by their experiences on planes, lies the issue I mentioned at first. There is a certain amount of wiggle room, I believe, when saying a 'walker (canon or not) visited [x plane]. For each plane, there is a certain amount of "uniqueness," if you'll follow me, that dictates how much of an impact that plane will have on a 'walker. Zendikar on its own was relatively normal; after the Eldrazi were released, it became very unique. Mirrodin on its own was normal; New Phyrexia is unique. If you follow my logic, I'm looking at it from the perspective of how much mortal peril and planar destruction an average planar event (i.e. what we see through the block expansions) creates. Zendikar was perhaps a bit more perilous than an "average" plane, but compared to, say, Innistrad it probably posed the same amount of mortal peril to a visiting 'walker. Now that the Eldrazi are released, they not only represent a plane-wide (and inevitable) destructive event - that in this case has even driven Gideon to go find some sort of solution to the problem - that will eventually pose a problem to the larger multiverse. The same thing can be said about Mirrodin -- the mortal peril was likely the same as on any other given plane until it became New Phyrexia, and Phyrexia poses as much or more a problem to the multiverse than the Eldrazi.

Now, the reason I make this mention of "uniqueness" is because of Jakkard's main exception to our normal rule: guns. On any other plane, where such artifacts of death and destruction might be limited to a certain subgroup (like, say, the Rakdos or something), then it could probably be ignored. But on Jakkard, part of the main focus of the plane itself is the widespread use of guns. I think, if this were a more "normal" M:EM plane, like one of Sertaria's continents or Adrisar or Ihn Gallad, a decent exception could be made to say that this experience isn't far beyond what a canon planeswalker might go through on a canon plane. However, the fact that guns are used by pretty much everyone on Jakkard works against it in this case. Gideon being the main "hero" character among the neowalkers also counts against it (as it is my understanding he even stopped his mission for Eldrazi because of the big Dragon's Maze plot).

So, in the end, I think that Jakkard specifically cannot be said to be visited by canon 'walkers; unless and until we get a canon plane with widespread use of guns (specifically and not just equivalent tech) (and even then limited to only the 'walkers who show up to said hypothetical plane).

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:52 pm 
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So I'm afraid I'm going to have to vote NAI, for the same essential reasons as my previous NAI vote here.

As an aside, while I did think Raven's response to Barinellos read somewhat confrontational, I do believe that it was both totally justified as well as rational -- it did not cross any lines in my opinion. You stated your opinion in a clear manner and kept from actual aggressive mannerisms or words.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:50 am 
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Wasn't Portal: Second Age set somewhere on Dominaria where a bunch of people had guns? Mostly humans, but I vaguely seem to remember that there were even some goblins where it looked like they had guns in the art?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:13 am 
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Wasn't Portal: Second Age set somewhere on Dominaria where a bunch of people had guns? Mostly humans, but I vaguely seem to remember that there were even some goblins where it looked like they had guns in the art?

Not goblins. Nightstalkers.
And Caliman was a tiny island nation founded on top of Thran ruins. In terms of global importance or influence it was MIND BOGGLINGLY insignificant.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:18 am 
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What's the Goblin General got? I always thought it was a rifle, but I guess it could be a funny kind of club or something?

Related question - is there a way to see bigger art on Gatherer?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:20 am 
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What's the Goblin General got? I always thought it was a rifle, but I guess it could be a funny kind of club or something?

Related question - is there a way to see bigger art on Gatherer?

I don't think it's a gun, but dakmor spit up a lot of weird tech.
And no, there isn't an enhanced option on gatherer.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:25 am 
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Lordy, I really need to start wearing my glasses...

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:16 pm 
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Saying that Jakkard is an exception because guns is kinda silly.

I mean, there's no particular pressing reason why a Planeswalker would suddenly start using a weapon that runs entirely on bullets that you can only get on this plane. It doesn't make sense.

I'm not sure I agree in general that uniqueness is an important factor, or even that visiting a plane should have any effect whatsoever on a person's personality. Why should it? Not every experience is profound.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:08 pm 
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I'm not necessarily saying that Gideon (or any planeswalker) would start using guns regularly just because they have seen them on this plane, but here on Jakkard specifically, where they are used by every side, they will make an impression.

Imagine if Wizards ever decides to make the one plane that breaks the rules of "no guns," or simpler yet, has Ravnican bam-sticks show up in spells and card art. Someone who has been to Jakkard will instantly know that it's dangerous. Someone who hasn't will need to have it shot at them before they realize what kind of threat it poses.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:03 am 
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The usual procedure for tied votes is that acceptance or rejection is decided based on which way the M:EMperor voted. Since the current M:EMperor, Yxoque, has not voted on this work, I am going to have to say that for now, this has not been accepted. I'm not going to close the thread, though, in case either Yxoque does show up to offer his opinions, or RavenoftheBlack wishes to extend the vote.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:55 pm 
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The usual procedure for tied votes is that acceptance or rejection is decided based on which way the M:EMperor voted. Since the current M:EMperor, Yxoque, has not voted on this work, I am going to have to say that for now, this has not been accepted. I'm not going to close the thread, though, in case either Yxoque does show up to offer his opinions, or RavenoftheBlack wishes to extend the vote.

I say we just drop it. Barinellos is against it, and Yxoque hasn't voted on anything in months. This is dead in the water.

Rejected.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:16 pm 
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I mean I could stage a coup and take over as M:EMperor again :P

But I don't really want to.


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