I want to ask your opinion on why Mirrodin is such a trainwreck and what should be changed/retconed to make it work. The points I care most about are: - How Karn transported phyrexian oil there; - The whole taking life from other planes thing; - Why there were still Mirrans at the end;
The real problem with Mirrodin is that it's an incredibly boring world from a worldbuilding perspective.
You have five areas (one for each color) and five races (one for each colors) and five different human groups (one for each color)... And the artifact theme just isn't enough to carry the entire world.
The best thing that could have happened to it was a Phyrexian invasion to shake things up.
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"I'm all for screwing with the natural order. The natural order objectively is awful. The natural order includes death, disease, pain, and starvation." --Sam Keeper
The points I care most about are: - How Karn transported phyrexian oil there;
In the original interpretation, it was Jeska/Karona that did it. Of course, that causes issues what with the nullity of Karona's Bogus Journey.
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At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost. Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind. To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"
The real problem with Mirrodin is that it's an incredibly boring world from a worldbuilding perspective.
You have five areas (one for each color) and five races (one for each colors) and five different human groups (one for each color)... And the artifact theme just isn't enough to carry the entire world.
The best thing that could have happened to it was a Phyrexian invasion to shake things up.
In some ways, I find the simplicity appealing, because it allowed for some truly beautiful worldbuilding in regards to each different culture (except the Black faction).
But indeed it just doesn't hold a candle to some of Magic's finest sets.
I see where you're coming from. But I tend to think about it like this: If someone submitted the plane to the Expanded Multiverse, would it get voted in. And Mirrodin probably wouldn't on account of being too simple.
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"I'm all for screwing with the natural order. The natural order objectively is awful. The natural order includes death, disease, pain, and starvation." --Sam Keeper
I find it ironic, and a little sad, that with all of Mirrodin's problems from a world-building and story-telling standpoint, it remains one of the best-selling sets in Magic's history. I believe it's second only to Return to Ravnica, though I couldn't find the figures to back that up, so I could well be wrong. That's... really unfortunate.
I'm actually pretty fond of Memnarch, as well, it's just there are so many plot-holes when it comes to Mirrodin, and even more when you fast-foward to Scars-era Mirrodin. As a player, I really enjoyed the set, but as a Vorthos, I really feel it could have been handled much better.
Joined: Sep 25, 2013 Posts: 14140 Location: Kamloops, BC
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I think that Mirrodin broke sales records even before the broken cards in Darksteel came out. I have no idea how I would confirm that though. Part of the reason is probably because it was the most unique plane of its day. Magic had already experimented with other settings, but they were all pretty similar to Dominaria. Mirrodin sold on novelty value (and of course power level).
The 5 regions, 5 races thing is super lazy, but it kind of works with the artificialness of the plane. If they played that angle up a little more it would've been awesome.
*"To YMTC it up" means to design cards that have value mostly from a design perspective. i.e. you would put them in a case under glass in your living room and visitors could remark upon the wonderful design principles, with nobody ever worring if the cards are annoying/pointless/confusing in actual play
Joined: Sep 22, 2013 Posts: 5700 Location: Inside my own head
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I would think that part of the appeal of Mirrodin was that it showed how unique Magic can get while still staying both fantasy and Magic. Mirrodin skirted the lines of what most would consider sci-fi (high fantasy sci-fi like Doctor Who or Avatar [the James Cameron movie]) - with its total metal everything and little robots everywhere - without outright losing what makes it Magic (the five colors, the references to planes and the multiverse, the representations and mechanics) or rejecting fantasy as its base.
Actually, from that perspective, having the [five areas = five colors] thing may have been a conscious choice to keep from crossing too far into the high science fiction territory. I'm not necessarily saying it was a good decision or that it was handled exceptionally well, but they may have thought they needed to make the five colors more obvious to counteract the metallic robotic feel.
Honestly, the "five colors, five areas" thing is not a major concern of mine. My problems with Mirrodin, in no particular order, are:
Spoiler
Phyrexian Oil - Who brought it, why did it suddenly become sentient, how does it reproduce itself, WHY?!?!
Soul-Traps - Where did they come from, what worlds were they used on, why did we never hear about them before or since, how did Memnarch (who can't walk the planes) place them in the first place, who was taken, WHY?!?!?
Time - How long did Mirrodin exist, how many generations of people were there (In the novels, it is explained that every ten years, Memnarch sends out the Levelers to kill the most skilled warriors, because they were the most likely to have the Spark. This suggests numerous generations. However, at the end, it "returned" those who were taken.) How much time passed between Mirrodin and Scars? Glissa's still around, after all... WHY?!?!?!
The Spark - How does Memnarch know about it, how is Memnarch able to manipulate it (to the point he believes he can take one, which even frickin Yawgmoth couldn't figure out), how is the spark transfered from Glissa to Slobad, why is Memnarch's believe enough to keep out Karn, his frickin creator, if the mirari was so strong AND malfunctioning, why the bloody hell would Karn turn in into the guardian of his metallic world, WHY?!?!?
There are probably others, but I think that's good enough for me for now.
Soul-Traps - Where did they come from, what worlds were they used on, why did we never hear about them before or since, how did Memnarch (who can't walk the planes) place them in the first place, who was taken, WHY?!?!?
Please, Raven. You of all people know the answers to that one:
Spoiler
1. Robert Z'Dar gave them to Joe Estevez. 2. Wherever tax incentives and low labor costs make it cheap to film. 3. Because, man, was that a stinker. And does any movie really "star" Joe Estevez? 4. Apparently, all you have to do is hold them over a dying person's body, and they turn into soul-filled glowsticks. No planeswalking required! 5. A bunch of teenagers - especially that one guy with the blonde mullet, who became a Soul-Taker himself. And one old guy at the start of the movie for exposition purposes, but who cares about him? 6. Because Joel used those special parts to make his robot friends.
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"And remember, I'm pullin' for ya, 'cause we're all in this together." - Red Green
Honestly, the "five colors, five areas" thing is not a major concern of mine. My problems with Mirrodin, in no particular order, are:
[spoiler]Phyrexian Oil - Who brought it, why did it suddenly become sentient, how does it reproduce itself, WHY?!?!
Soul-Traps - Where did they come from, what worlds were they used on, why did we never hear about them before or since, how did Memnarch (who can't walk the planes) place them in the first place, who was taken, WHY?!?!?
Time - How long did Mirrodin exist, how many generations of people were there (In the novels, it is explained that every ten years, Memnarch sends out the Levelers to kill the most skilled warriors, because they were the most likely to have the Spark. This suggests numerous generations. However, at the end, it "returned" those who were taken.) How much time passed between Mirrodin and Scars? Glissa's still around, after all... WHY?!?!?!
The Spark - How does Memnarch know about it, how is Memnarch able to manipulate it (to the point he believes he can take one, which even frickin Yawgmoth couldn't figure out), how is the spark transfered from Glissa to Slobad, why is Memnarch's believe enough to keep out Karn, his frickin creator, if the mirari was so strong AND malfunctioning, why the bloody hell would Karn turn in into the guardian of his metallic world, WHY?!?!?
There are probably others, but I think that's good enough for me for now.[/spoiler]
Spoilerific answers that are very spoilery in their carcinoma butts
- If I am not mistaken, phyrexian oil is heavily implied to be magical nanotechnology, so there's your "why it reproduces". I still have no clue why it produced mycosynth or how New Phyrexia actually started (what, a few deranged infectees gathered on the center of the plane and began playing doctor in a non-sensual manner?), but I find it works on it's favour because nothing is scarier than mystery (and therefore Kruphix). As to how it got there, either Karn or Jeska, take your pick.
- Yeah, this has no excuse. Either Menarch is the most OP genius of all time, or some planeswalker constructed them, because if such a thing was possible than we'd have a multi-planar federation now.
- Pre-Green Sun burst I have no idea. Post-Green Sun burst it seems to have lasted somewhere around 50 years until Scars of Mirrodin begins. This may or may not contradict the overall Time lore, but the flavour of MScars of Mirrodin implies that this is more or less the time that has passed.
- Planeswalker magic. As to why Memnarch kept Karn out, he is intrinsically connected to the plane, so he could do that.
Spoilerific answers that are very spoilery in their carcinoma butts
- Yeah, this has no excuse. Either Menarch is the most OP genius of all time, or some planeswalker constructed them, because if such a thing was possible than we'd have a multi-planar federation now.
- Pre-Green Sun burst I have no idea. Post-Green Sun burst it seems to have lasted somewhere around 50 years until Scars of Mirrodin begins. This may or may not contradict the overall Time lore, but the flavour of MScars of Mirrodin implies that this is more or less the time that has passed.
- Planeswalker magic. As to why Memnarch kept Karn out, he is intrinsically connected to the plane, so he could do that.
Answers from on high
Memnarch had access to the entirety of Karn's work in the palace of Galdroon, including all the data collected by the other Mirari brethren's probes. He was working at extrapolating data incoming from extraplanar and based on work from the being that made HIM and gave him sapience in the first place. So, a bit of both of those really.
As for time, there is a serious wrinkle, a literal one caused by the Time Rifts. They generated an accelerated temporal pocket that existed, in part empowered by Memnarch's insanity, causing his delusions to become real, including, apparently the fact that time sped up. Within this pocket, at least a couple of millenia passed, but outside, it was only 300 years.
The Spark: Same reason he could construct the soul traps. He had all of Karn's data and centuries to study it.
The above time rifts and menarch's insanity combined kept Karn off the plane. Memnarch believed that Karn was there SO HARD that reality forced out Karn when he showed back up because it couldn't deal with there being two of him.
Re: Making Memnarch steward: Karn is MADE of bad decisions. He is a fatal optimist, which tends to kick him in the junk. It's also important to note that the Mirari was so strong BECAUSE it was malfunctioning. It wasn't a baseline model that it created that kind of havoc.
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At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost. Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind. To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"
It's worth noting that some of these solutions are extrapolated. It doesn't, to my knowledge, explicitly say anywhere exactly how the temporal dynamics worked, but it fits with what we know.
...Of course, then Scars basically screwed the timeline up again completely because everything Mirrodin and Karona touch turns to temporal disaster. Sigh.
The oil was probably a late-game weapon that never quite made it to use in the Invasion. It's certainly not glistening oil of the type we saw before. There was no indication of it having the properties it showed during Scars. Also I'm pretty sure it was, y'know, glistening and golden rather than black as on Mirrodin, so yeah. But anyway, it was prooobably a nanoweapon designed late in the war that was never fully employed and didn't have enough material to work with (it seems to require both metal and power--i.e. the huge mana core of Mirrodin), we know that it was tracked there by Karn and it was proooobably brought there either from Dominaria or from Phyrexia itself (because the other explanation--that it came from his heartstone--is stupid and makes no sense). We know for certain that it was Karn that tracked it there, though--that's why he's wandering around now looking for other planes that he infected.
As for how it grew, well, it apparently contained blueprints for Phyrexian creatures. Once Memnarch was gone, and his world-warping madness no longer protected Mirrodin, the oil began to rapidly mutate the plane. The Nim were a huge nesting site for the infection, of course, and once it got lodged in other areas it really was only a matter of time before they overran the plane. They already had access, of course, to the power of the core, and all of Memnarch's creation.
At that point, it would've been easy to start assembling vats from the blueprints contained within the oil. After a very short while, very few New Phyrexians were probably culled from the existing population.
One thing I'd love to know, though, is how the Praetors were created and rose to power. I'd read the crap out of an Elish Norn origin story.
As for how it grew, well, it apparently contained blueprints for Phyrexian creatures. Once Memnarch was gone, and his world-warping madness no longer protected Mirrodin, the oil began to rapidly mutate the plane. The Nim were a huge nesting site for the infection, of course, and once it got lodged in other areas it really was only a matter of time before they overran the plane. They already had access, of course, to the power of the core, and all of Memnarch's creation.
Indeed, but Scars seems to depict the infection as only a significant menace after the phyrexians deliberately began, well, infecting. Surely there would have been previous infections, but they were rare enough that nobody raised an eyebrow until the end of the world began to fester beneath their feet.
It could also be that mirrans in general are also ungodly stupid. Which wouldn't surprise me, sadly, because it was semi-confirmed with the vedalken.
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