All kids should be granted basic respect for their identity and the right to pursue it, not just trans kids. If any child has an issue with how others refer to them, that should be a clear enough sign to stop. This clearly would benefit all children.
Alright, let's adopt the hypothetical... you are now God King of Chile.
What consequences do you propose to put on 12 or 13 year old kids? How would you enforce those consequences? (Or, I suppose I should allow that you suggest no consequences, in which case how do you trigger a change?)
Are you at all concerned about the outsized impact one child's decision, preference, nature (I leave that open to your interpretation) might have on all of the other children they interact with?
EDIT: I should mention that I have more than a few friends within the LGBTQ+ community (some of whom are quite close). They take these things seriously, and so do I. This is at the limit of how much I can discuss my personal life, because as I mentioned earlier I am not anonymous at all, so out of respect for them I'm going to avoid specifics. BUT don't make the mistake that I have no personal experience or knowledge of the community -> you would be very wrong to think that.
I will say, because we are no longer connected she and I, that a lesbian friend of mine convinced me to be pro gay marriage about 20 years ago. So I am also able to have my mind changed, when the argument has merit. I was adamantly against gay marriage until she showed me the errors of my beliefs, so it was a full reversal on my end.
Oh gawd... I'm definitely not an expert on education, but one thing is clear: consequences are essential. I've seen far too many instances where cynical kids manipulate the system, while great kids learn that bad behaviour often goes unpunished. In most cases, it's the bullied who ends up being pushed out, and the bullies learn that they can get away with being awful as long as they don't resort to physical violence.
To truly foster a culture of respect, we need to implement clear and consistent consequences for any form of disrespect or bullying. This includes not just addressing physical aggression, but also verbal and emotional harm, I could go on actual initiatives... but I'm in the middle of something... maybe later I could add a couple ones, but dunno, Zero tolerance to disrespect, with various levels of consequences, expel being an actual one, I read about peer support, as in kids actually listen to other kids experiences, making giving victims voice and creating paths for by standers to take action.
Sounds to me like you are in favor of laws against free expression, as I fail to see the difference between what you just said and a law that does the same thing.
Let me ask you a follow up question: does it trouble you at all if the kids don't believe what they are saying. For example, if your consequences force them to say things they don't believe?
How would you feel if religious people required all of the children to pray, and recite things like the Lord's Prayer, even if they don't believe it?
What if the children in question were Muslim? or, like me, Atheist?
I bring this up, because there's virtually no difference.
Joined: Nov 10, 2013 Posts: 17750 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Bullies aren’t going anywhere. Whoever is different gets bullied. Someone who relishes in being different will be a target. My nephew decided to adopt a pronoun, no idea why. I think he went with they. He got bullied mercilessly and his mom made him change schools.
At the new school he goes by he and is tearing it up as a heartthrob, dating girls, being chased after and all that
There was some suicidal issues at that previous school too
He’s not trans or close to it. He was going through identity discovery like every single human being does around that age. Those pronouns gave him an easy out to experiment with.
I think without them, he ends up not getting bullied, not having suicidal thoughts, not changing schools.
Joined: Mar 18, 2016 Posts: 5360 Location: Anyway the wind blows
Identity: doesnt really matter
Preferred Pronoun Set: to me
Respecting a kids identity is a complicated idea. My sister identified as a dog when she was ~4; she’d run around the house on all 4s barking. I don’t think my parents were Bad People for not accepting her as a dog and feeding her in dog bowls and taking her outside to **** on the lawn. My son identified as the Worlds Greatest Swordsman after watching One Piece and thinking he was hot stuff with his toy swords; I think I did the right thing in teasing and pwning him in playful sword fights and talking to him about the need to dedicate himself to practicing and putting in the work to master things he wants to be good at. Kids are all about exploring their identities; they don’t know **** and are poking at the world to see what sticks. As adults we must balance allowing this exploration and providing guidance to avoid long term harm, not blindly affirm their every whim.
And with kids experiencing gender dysphoria there is some indication most will outgrow it and just become gay adults if they aren’t started down a pathway to transition and lifelong medicalization. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25231780/
We do not have a very good understanding of this larger phenomenon. I see no reason to act like this is an easy issue with obvious answers in how to best proceed for the long term health and quality of life for these kids. We may be setting up kids for a lifetime of unnecessary hardship and anguish and medical debt in our attempts to be kind and affirm them. We literally don’t know the unintended consequences of these actions.
on a way way way less serious topic (if that's okay) I'm not sure which is more entertaining the actual car chase or the youtube chat. I was just watching a live chase in LA. Half the chat was comparing it to GTA and the other half was making fun of the driver's driving.
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"angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of night," -GINSBERG
Kids are all about exploring their identities; they don’t know **** and are poking at the world to see what sticks. As adults we must balance allowing this exploration and providing guidance to avoid long term harm, not blindly affirm their every whim.
…
We may be setting up kids for a lifetime of unnecessary hardship and anguish and medical debt in our attempts to be kind and affirm them. We literally don’t know the unintended consequences of these actions.
The more I think about this, the more I think it’s bad for adults to affirm children.
The definition of sex that I adhere to is coherent and consistent across all anisogamous organisms. Same for humans as plants as clownfish (and how we know when they’ve changed sexes) as crocodiles (who lack sex chromosomes), et al. Sex is determined by the type of gamete the organism produces or their bodies are organized around the production of. Some species are able to change their sex (none that I know by choice; some that do under various environmental pressures), but humans are not among them. We can mimic various sex characteristics thru nomenclature and dress (cultural signifiers) or surgeries (primary and secondary characteristics) or hormones (secondary characteristics), but not actually change sex. Maybe this changes someday as technology continues to improve, but for the foreseeable future we can not. So we are lying to them if we tell them they can change their sex. And choices they make as a result of that are rooted in lies, setting them up for a lifetime of chasing fundamentally unattainable goals.
With adults, I’m fine with this. If you’re grown and entrusted with full independence, you can do whatever crazy **** you can dream up, idc. The dood who had plastic surgeries to turn himself into a cat - cool bro whatever’s clever - you own it. But for kids, they aren’t independent. I don’t trust my kids to make decisions about what food they’re going to eat for dinner (they’d choose candy and ice cream all day every day) without my guidance but I should trust them to make lifelong decisions about something as intractable as their sex and as complicated as modern conceptions around gender? That feels deeply irresponsible.
Ohh man I havent seen the vids just a ton of memes every were.
Anyways and to put and end to this from. My part I agree with most jamerson says and to the reasonable doubt of if what is being done is correct or not, Its clear to me tho that doing nothing is negligent, and freedom of speech is not freedom of consequences, the part when all this is a matter of discussion only if trans people are involved is CURIOUS to say the least.
Anyways have a nice weekend, Cucho out. To Barney: its far better, the story finally is becoming interesting, loooking forward to S03
Ohh man I havent seen the vids just a ton of memes every were.
It’s hard to find, they keep getting copyright stricken on youtube. Might be able to find it on TikTok - I don’t have an account but my wife had found clips of it there.
It’s pretty funny. She does the Homer Simpson at one point
Joined: Nov 03, 2013 Posts: 7271 Location: Your Head
Identity: Im not a cat
I saw the replay on NBC app. It was bad. She got no votes out of 18. 2 rounds/9 judges. She hopped like a kangaroo during one round and it didn't look as cool as it sounds
Oh ****. Barney is watching HBO. Must mean he's on vacation
I am! Now I gotta decide what’s next. Acolyte or Fallout.
Fallout would be my suggestion
EDIT: I know i'm preaching to the choir on trump being bad for the country and world but some stuff from a NYT article entitled: Deploying on U.S. Soil: How Trump Would Use Soldiers Against Riots, Crime and Migrants The former president’s vision of using the military to enforce the law domestically would carry profound implications for civil liberties.
Instead, legal and policy development work on ideas that are too radical even for Project 2025 are being handled elsewhere, including at a Trump-aligned think tank called the Center for Renewing America that is run by Russell Vought, who was Mr. Trump’s White House budget chief.
An early 2023 email from a member of the center’s staff listed 10 agenda topics for papers that the center planned to write on legal and policy frameworks. An introduction to the email said the goal was to “help us build the case and achieve consensus leading into 2025.” The email went on to circulate more broadly, and The Times reviewed a copy.
The email placed each topic into one of three categories. One set involved Congress. A second involved “broader legal” issues — including “Christian nationalism” and “nullification,” the pre-Civil War idea that states should be able to negate federal laws they don’t like. The third category was “day one” ideas, meaning those whose legal frameworks were already well established, and which could be put into effect by a president unilaterally.
No. 4 on the list: “Insurrection — stop riots ** — Day 1, easy.”
The Center for Renewing America has since published papers about several other agenda items on its list, including arguing that a 1974 law banning presidents from impounding funds — or refusing to spend money Congress has appropriated for things the White House dislikes — is unconstitutional (No. 1 on the list) and advocating for the elimination of the post-Watergate norm of Justice Department investigative independence from the White House (No. 5).
The center has not published any paper on invoking the Insurrection Act to use troops to suppress violent protests. But earlier this year, it published a paper on a closely related topic: invoking that law to use troops in Southwest border states to enforce immigration law. The paper was co-written by Ken Cuccinelli, the acting deputy Homeland Security secretary in the Trump administration.
While the paper focuses on border security, most of its legal analysis applies to any situation in which a president deems the use of troops necessary to suppress lawlessness. It laid out extensive arguments for why the Insurrection Act provides “enormous” leeway for the president to use regular troops directly to make arrests and enforce the law.
It also cited a sweeping Justice Department memorandum written after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, by John Yoo, a Bush administration lawyer with an idiosyncratically broad view of presidential power. Mr. Yoo had argued that the Posse Comitatus Act could not stop a presidential decision to use the armed forces domestically to combat terrorist activities.
In a statement responding to The Times’s reporting, Rachel Cauley, a spokeswoman for the Center for Renewing America, said, “Thank you for confirming that we have made it a priority to articulate that the president has the legal authority to use the military to secure the border.”
While the center’s statement — like its paper — framed the prospect of using troops on domestic soil in the context of securing the border, not suppressing anti-Trump protests, Mr. Vought was more expansive in a hidden-camera video released last week by a British journalism nonprofit, the Centre for Climate Reporting, which spoke with him while deceptively posing as relatives of a wealthy conservative donor.
“George Floyd obviously was not about race — it was about destabilizing the Trump administration,” he said. “We put out, for instance, a 50-page paper designed for lawyers to know that the president has, you know, the ability both along the border and elsewhere to maintain law and order with the military and that’s something that, you know, that’s going to be important for him to remember and his lawyers to affirm. But we’ve given them the case for that.”
Mr. Trump and his campaign have tried to distance themselves from Project 2025 and other outside conservative groups, saying that only policy proposals endorsed by the campaign count. Ms. Leavitt said, “As President Trump and our campaign has repeatedly stated, outside groups do NOT speak for him. The ONLY official second-term policies are those that come directly from President Trump himself.”
Still, as a matter of substance, the lines between Project 2025’s work, the materials being developed separately by the Center for Renewing America and the Trump campaign can be blurry.
For example, Mr. Vought has also been in charge of one of the most important components of Project 2025: drafting executive orders and other unilateral actions Mr. Trump could take over the first six months in office. Mr. Vought also remains personally close to Mr. Trump. And the Republican National Committee, which Mr. Trump controls through allies, including his senior campaign adviser, Chris LaCivita, and his daughter-in-law, Lara Trump, put Mr. Vought in charge of the committee that developed the party’s platform.
That platform calls for “moving thousands of troops currently stationed overseas to our own southern border” to secure it against migrants.
At the Center for Renewing America, Mr. Vought has also hired Jeffrey Clark, a former Justice Department official in the Trump administration who was indicted in Georgia for working with Mr. Trump to help overturn the 2020 election.
Mr. Clark wrote the center’s paper laying out a legal framework for why the president can take direct control of Justice Department investigations and prosecutions, and was also appointed to co-lead Project 2025’s Justice Department policy efforts.
The federal indictment of Mr. Trump, which deems Mr. Clark an unindicted co-conspirator, recounts how a White House lawyer told Mr. Clark that there had not been outcome-changing election fraud — and warned that if Mr. Trump nonetheless remained in office, there would be riots in every major city in the United States.
“Well,” Mr. Clark responded, according to the indictment, “that’s why there’s an Insurrection Act.”
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"angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of night," -GINSBERG
over on instagram The View co-host Anna Navarro shared the following picture
and her followers have added to it:
11. A movie-role from Harvey Weinstein 12. Invitation to Church from Tom Cruise 13. Dinner with Jeffrey Dahmer 14. Reverse-mortgage from Tom Selleck 15. Swimming in the Seine 16. JD Vance alone on my living room couch.
11. A movie-role from Harvey Weinstein 12. Invitation to Church from Tom Cruise 13. Dinner with Jeffrey Dahmer 14. Reverse-mortgage from Tom Selleck 15. Swimming in the Seine 16. JD Vance alone on my living room couch.
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