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 Post subject: Return to Kaladesh
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:29 am 
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So given the whole discussion on Neon Kamigawa I wonder if the opposite could happen with Kaladesh, namely a potential return could focus more on Hindu mythology. Having gods emerge from the literal aether would be great, but even the angels and demons we got there could be expanded upon like the conflict between the devas and the asuras.

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 Post subject: Re: Return to Kaladesh
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:53 am 
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They'd probably receive a lot of backlash for being "insensitive" so if they did They'd probably disguise it really well. I imagine someone is weighing the potential benefits and costs right now and thinking the same thing. Best to stay far away from living religions

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 Post subject: Re: Return to Kaladesh
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:36 am 
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But Hindu mythology is one of the highest requests.

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 Post subject: Re: Return to Kaladesh
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:11 pm 
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But Hindu mythology is one of the highest requests.

But it's also one of the most widely practiced faiths in the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Return to Kaladesh
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:42 pm 
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Over in YMTC for a contest/game I ended up pitching Mad Max Kaladesh. I stand by that.

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 Post subject: Re: Return to Kaladesh
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:45 pm 
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LilyStorm wrote:
They'd probably receive a lot of backlash for being "insensitive" so if they did They'd probably disguise it really well. I imagine someone is weighing the potential benefits and costs right now and thinking the same thing. Best to stay far away from living religions


And yet:

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 Post subject: Re: Return to Kaladesh
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:23 pm 
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That's pretty unblatant. Is that even a word?

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 Post subject: Re: Return to Kaladesh
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:43 am 
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LilyStorm wrote:
That's pretty unblatant. Is that even a word?


Its blatantly close enough to a iconographic depiction of the goddess Lakshmi that Shivam Bhatt objected to it pretty forcefully as appropriation of his religion and culture.

For what it’s worth, Lakshmi is a goddess of wealth, fortune, and fertility—or “bounty,” if you will, so it’s not just a cosmetic resemblance.

In any event, it’s just another example of inconsistent art direction and cultural literacy at WotC.


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 Post subject: Re: Return to Kaladesh
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:15 pm 
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I feel like the multiple arm thing has been fsirly appropriated by other cultures so Im still gonna say its very unblatant and mostly unoffensive

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 Post subject: Re: Return to Kaladesh
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:10 am 
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Either way if Creative decides to communicate with the Indian fans for once there's the potential to do something tasteful.

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 Post subject: Re: Return to Kaladesh
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:09 pm 
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Either way if Creative decides to communicate with the Indian fans for once there's the potential to do something tasteful.


They did, they hired a small group of consultants for Kaladesh, but from my understanding none of them actually where involved with the world building.

Which I think is what they really need to do. Having a consulates to guide creative is fine but they need to have people actually from the cultures they wanna depict involved in making the world. It would add more authenticity to the world, would likely result tasteful use of stuff and would likely not feel as tone-deaf if they messed up on stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Return to Kaladesh
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:06 am 
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LilyStorm wrote:
I feel like the multiple arm thing has been fsirly appropriated by other cultures so Im still gonna say its very unblatant and mostly unoffensive


I mean, no offense, but I’m going to defer to Shivam on what constitutes an offensive appropriation of his religion’s icons.


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 Post subject: Re: Return to Kaladesh
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:36 am 
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Its blatantly close enough to a iconographic depiction of the goddess Lakshmi that Shivam Bhatt objected to it pretty forcefully as appropriation of his religion and culture.

For what it’s worth, Lakshmi is a goddess of wealth, fortune, and fertility—or “bounty,” if you will, so it’s not just a cosmetic resemblance.

If it was a Loxodon of Knowledge or something I'd buy it, but Hinduism is a religion full of multi-handed goofs who collectively have the entire dictionary as their domain and several depictions each, you could make it a celebrant of destruction and suddenly it would be cultural appropriation of some other Hindu god. Having more than two hands and referencing bounty is not blatantly anything, it is equally likely that it draws upon Naga myth.
Wikipedia wrote:
The mythological serpent race that took form as cobras often can be found in Hindu iconography. The nāgas are described as the powerful, splendid, wonderful and proud semidivine race that can assume their physical form either as human, partial human-serpent or the whole serpent. Their domain is in the enchanted underworld, the underground realm filled with gems, gold and other earthly treasures called Naga-loka or Patala-loka. They are also often associated with bodies of waters — including rivers, lakes, seas, and wells — and are guardians of treasure.

Not that it matters, even if it did. Drawing upon cultural symbols, religious or otherwise, is not a sin.
I'd like to see fewer deities show up in the Magic cosmology though, but I don't think Kaldheim is going to comply.

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 Post subject: Re: Return to Kaladesh
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:18 pm 
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LilyStorm wrote:
I feel like the multiple arm thing has been fsirly appropriated by other cultures so Im still gonna say its very unblatant and mostly unoffensive


I mean, no offense, but I’m going to defer to Shivam on what constitutes an offensive appropriation of his religion’s icons.


As clear this is common sense, as a non-christen poc amazing how many people don't get this.


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 Post subject: Re: Return to Kaladesh
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:40 pm 
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Fair enough. People to claim to be offended just to cause trouble or feel entitled. Not that I think that'd be much of a problem with something like magic. Regardless of whether or not they have already printed a hindu related card, its still something they would want to be extremely careful of or you'll end up with the arabian nights problem and end up with a ton of unreprintable cards.

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 Post subject: Re: Return to Kaladesh
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:01 pm 
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LilyStorm wrote:
Fair enough. People to claim to be offended just to cause trouble or feel entitled. Not that I think that'd be much of a problem with something like magic. Regardless of whether or not they have already printed a hindu related card, its still something they would want to be extremely careful of or you'll end up with the arabian nights problem and end up with a ton of unreprintable cards.

This is equally a problem that there are individuals acting as if they represent everyone with whom they share a trait or culture with. The community is not monolithic, so what offends one person might not even register to someone else.

Mind you, I'm not advocating trying to intentionally ignore others, but people need to acknowledge that communities are made of individuals first and foremost.

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 Post subject: Re: Return to Kaladesh
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:38 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
LilyStorm wrote:
Fair enough. People to claim to be offended just to cause trouble or feel entitled. Not that I think that'd be much of a problem with something like magic. Regardless of whether or not they have already printed a hindu related card, its still something they would want to be extremely careful of or you'll end up with the arabian nights problem and end up with a ton of unreprintable cards.

This is equally a problem that there are individuals acting as if they represent everyone with whom they share a trait or culture with. The community is not monolithic, so what offends one person might not even register to someone else.

Mind you, I'm not advocating trying to intentionally ignore others, but people need to acknowledge that communities are made of individuals first and foremost.


Then there's the third group of people who get offended on behalf of a group they aren't actually a part of. They tend to be the worst, since they typically don't stop when the offender concedes enough that the actual affected would be appeased or worse: the offense wasn't a big deal to the "affected" to begin with or "the solution" is more offensive. It breeds a "secret police" sort of air.

Anywho, part of the issue with WotC's original approach would be the same issue if they tried to make a "Chinese" plane. The way the West tends to think of the cultural backgrounds in India has no comprehension of how varied it is. China and India are each more equivalent to the whole of Europe (as in how Poland/Germany/France/Italy/Greece/Sweden/etc are different, then add the caste system on top of that) than the US (which is more of an anomaly due to the way it rapidly spread across so much area in a limited amount of time... and still has slight regional differences). They just didn't realize one set of consultants would just be such a minor section of the whole. I actually liked Shivam's approach to critiquing the whole thing as it was also affirming things WotC did well, and moreso had an air of "I'm more disappointed you were afraid to inject more of the culture" than "Why would you do these offensive things?" It's an approach that invites more exploration later instead of sealing off an area due to not knowing the no-go zones.


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