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 Post subject: [Story] Names
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:08 am 
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Names


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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Names
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:10 pm 
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Thanks for sharing!

Having had a hand in doing some post apocalyptic fiction myself, I can appreciate the weight of a fair few choices in the telling of this story. My biggest complaint probably isn't terribly relevant, given the pop up nature of the story and the actual emphasis, but when working with so few elements, it really makes me wish we had a better sense of the character of the place. The setting effectively becomes a companion when nobody else is around.

It's, odd, maybe ironic, but I liken this piece most closely to a cross between "Horse with no name" and "Under the Bridge". Is it odd that I find the writing most remiscent of music?

As to the actual writing, it is, of course as usual, technically impeccable. I personally find the refrain a little too omnipresent, a few times too frequent to carry as much weight as ir probably should. Albeit, that's a personal opinion, but be as it may, it is how I feel.

The last comment I have might just be too much a literal read, but I can't say I much care for the idea of the price being her memory. If, in a metaphorical sense, that works well enough, but if in a literal sense it does much to muddy the water of experience, to strip an epoch off her suffering. If she merely can't remember because time is a harsh mistress, that is a sad thing and adds great layers to the tale, but if it was a device of the deal, it makes things feel less engaging.

And lastly, largely a non sequitur, but I'm just reminded that somewhere in the multiverse, the Shifter is running up a bar tab while wearing Raiker Venn's face.

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At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Names
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:56 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
Thanks for sharing!

And as always, thanks for reading and commenting! Much appreciated.

Barinellos wrote:
Having had a hand in doing some post apocalyptic fiction myself, I can appreciate the weight of a fair few choices in the telling of this story. My biggest complaint probably isn't terribly relevant, given the pop up nature of the story and the actual emphasis, but when working with so few elements, it really makes me wish we had a better sense of the character of the place. The setting effectively becomes a companion when nobody else is around.

That's certainly fair. I tried to drop in a few notes, but yeah, it is kind of bare-bones, thinking about it. Mostly, I just didn't want this to go on too long, as I thought it would dilute the point a bit.

Barinellos wrote:
It's, odd, maybe ironic, but I liken this piece most closely to a cross between "Horse with no name" and "Under the Bridge". Is it odd that I find the writing most remiscent of music?

While neither were an intentional inspiration for this piece, I think both are very appropriate for it. The first couple of lines of "Under the Bridge" really fit well, as does the hook of "I don't ever wanna feel like I did that day."

Ironically, there is something in this story, which wound up playing a much smaller role than I had originally intended (and which I hope I or someone else develops further at some point in the future) which is directly inspired by a song, but it's not a song I would expect anybody to know, as I don't think it even charted back when it first came out. The song is called "Jenny," and it's by Harry Chapin. The most relevant verse is this:

Harry Chapin wrote:
I have seen a great city in the darkness
Dream lady dressed in cold concrete
I've seen the City of Angels
With the names of its dead in the street

Something about that last line always hits me as a wonder fantasy-genre image (even though he was almost undoubtedly referring to the Hollywood Walk of Fame). I picture it more like a tradition in a city, or even a world, to carve the names of its dead into the stone streets. In this story, there are so many dead, the idea gets really evocative to me. I love the idea, although because it wasn't the focus of this story, I don't think I did the concept justice.

Barinellos wrote:
As to the actual writing, it is, of course as usual, technically impeccable. I personally find the refrain a little too omnipresent, a few times too frequent to carry as much weight as ir probably should. Albeit, that's a personal opinion, but be as it may, it is how I feel.

Yeah, it shows up six times, which out of 2222 words might be a bit too frequent. I was trying to play around with structure here, where it's something that she keeps coming back to because it's a part of her personality that she actually knows. She's lost so much of the rest of it. Each time it shows up, it is spaced further from the time before (one body paragraph separates the first and the second, two separates the second and third, three separate the third and fourth, and so forth). I was hoping this might subtly hint that she's slowly losing even this understanding of herself. But again, it wasn't the main focus, so if it didn't work, I'm not too worried about it.

Barinellos wrote:
The last comment I have might just be too much a literal read, but I can't say I much care for the idea of the price being her memory. If, in a metaphorical sense, that works well enough, but if in a literal sense it does much to muddy the water of experience, to strip an epoch off her suffering. If she merely can't remember because time is a harsh mistress, that is a sad thing and adds great layers to the tale, but if it was a device of the deal, it makes things feel less engaging.

I'll have to reread it, because I may have made a mistake there. It wasn't my intention to imply that she gave up her memory. What she gave up for her immortality was her literacy. She literally can't read anymore. That's why it's always "markings" instead of "words." Of course, the deeper concept I'm hinting at here is the tie between writing and memory, and the stinging irony that the last remaining sapient on the plane cannot record its history. I'll have to look through to see if I stated something to the contrary, or if it's just the dominant impression of the piece. It was the second thing you said, the oppression of time on a mind that was never intended to live nearly as long as it has, that is affecting her memory.

Barinellos wrote:
And lastly, largely a non sequitur, but I'm just reminded that somewhere in the multiverse, the Shifter is running up a bar tab while wearing Raiker Venn's face.

:bored:

:D

Thanks for the critique, Barinellos!


Last edited by RavenoftheBlack on Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Names
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:47 pm 
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I want you to understand this comes from a place of love, but:
Damn you.

I obviously don't know how much you decided to write this specifically because of the current situation of the world, but given that we are currently going through a modern-day plague of sorts, this piece was just extremely heavy. Oppressive, I might say.

That said, I can't deny that there's an undercurrent of hope to it, which I can't help comparing a bit to Horizon: Zero Dawn. I can't help but remember one of George Carlin's famous lines: "the planet is fine, the people are fuuuuuuuucked."

I'm almost in agreement with Barinellos, that the repeated line feels maybe a bit too frequent, but I'd also say it adds to the oppressive atmosphere which made this piece so effective. I'm also aware that I am very fond of using the same technique in my writing, so I shouldn't even hold it against you.

There was one line that I thought read a little oddly:
Quote:
The rats had different names for their people based on their castes, she thought, though she could name neither those names nor the words for the castes themselves.

It's the "name neither those names" that sounds odd to me. Personally, I might try using "recall," or, to avoid using that word too much, maybe slightly rearrange the sentence to "call neither those names nor the words for the cast themselves to mind." I'm no longer confident in my suggestions, though, and since there's nothing technically wrong with the sentence, it might be better to leave it as-is since it's still perfectly clear what the sentence means.

Barinellos wrote:
And lastly, largely a non sequitur, but I'm just reminded that somewhere in the multiverse, the Shifter is running up a bar tab while wearing Raiker Venn's face.

I read this in the literal sense at first, and imagined Raiker walking in to our Bar at the End of the Multiverse (I forget the name I right now) and finding he owes thousands of dollars.


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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Names
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:59 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
And lastly, largely a non sequitur, but I'm just reminded that somewhere in the multiverse, the Shifter is running up a bar tab while wearing Raiker Venn's face.

I read this in the literal sense at first, and imagined Raiker walking in to our Bar at the End of the Multiverse (I forget the name I right now) and finding he owes thousands of dollars.

It is, in fact, 100% literal.

_________________
At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Names
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:16 pm 
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Thanks for reading and commenting, Luna! I appreciate it.

I want you to understand this comes from a place of love, but:
Damn you.

I obviously don't know how much you decided to write this specifically because of the current situation of the world, but given that we are currently going through a modern-day plague of sorts, this piece was just extremely heavy. Oppressive, I might say.

Yeah, I worried about that, but I needed something that could potentially wipe out an entire sapient population, but not necessarily all animal life, so I went with a plague. It was also intended, just a bit, to provide some sense of connection between the reader, with what we're going through, and the protagonist, and what she went through.

That said, I can't deny that there's an undercurrent of hope to it, which I can't help comparing a bit to Horizon: Zero Dawn. I can't help but remember one of George Carlin's famous lines: "the planet is fine, the people are fuuuuuuuucked."

As the big fan of Carlin that I am, it pleases me to conjure up one of his quotes, and one that I paraphrase often myself, at that. In a way, this piece was partially inspired by a poem from the WWI era. This poem, in fact:

There Will Come Soft Rains

I came to this poem from the Ray Bradbury short story of the same name, which uses the poem in it, and is an amazing piece of fiction that I highly recommend people checking out. There's an audio recording of Leonard Nimoy reading the story out on YouTube, as well.

I'm almost in agreement with Barinellos, that the repeated line feels maybe a bit too frequent, but I'd also say it adds to the oppressive atmosphere which made this piece so effective. I'm also aware that I am very fond of using the same technique in my writing, so I shouldn't even hold it against you.

It was an experiment. I'll read through it again in a week or so to see if I feel as you two do.

There was one line that I thought read a little oddly:
Quote:
The rats had different names for their people based on their castes, she thought, though she could name neither those names nor the words for the castes themselves.

It's the "name neither those names" that sounds odd to me. Personally, I might try using "recall," or, to avoid using that word too much, maybe slightly rearrange the sentence to "call neither those names nor the words for the cast themselves to mind." I'm no longer confident in my suggestions, though, and since there's nothing technically wrong with the sentence, it might be better to leave it as-is since it's still perfectly clear what the sentence means.

Good call. I can reword that to something less cumbersome and repetitive fairly easily, I should think.

Barinellos wrote:
And lastly, largely a non sequitur, but I'm just reminded that somewhere in the multiverse, the Shifter is running up a bar tab while wearing Raiker Venn's face.

I read this in the literal sense at first, and imagined Raiker walking in to our Bar at the End of the Multiverse (I forget the name I right now) and finding he owes thousands of dollars.

Barinellos wrote:
It is, in fact, 100% literal.

Yeah, I don't remember when Barinellos got it into his head that this would be a thing, but he definitely meant it in a literal sense. I don't remember if we ever established it in a story or not, but Barinellos certainly has it set in headcanon!


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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Names
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:44 pm 
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Yeah, I don't remember when Barinellos got it into his head that this would be a thing, but he definitely meant it in a literal sense. I don't remember if we ever established it in a story or not, but Barinellos certainly has it set in headcanon!

It all ultimately stems from Aversion, because I think it fair enough to see why Venn and the Duchess would clash, but what would Venn have to think poorly of the Shifter?
And knowing the scoundrel as I do, I believe it would be the petty twist that the Shifter give Venn a taste of personal tragedy, no matter it's rather watered down.

But it never did make it to a story. I'm sure his aversion to the Shifter is a much more personal irritation than to the Duchess. And the Shifter, undoubtedly, knows that and revels in it.

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At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Names
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:39 pm 
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Thanks for reading and commenting, Luna! I appreciate it.

Well, thank you for acknowledging it, but I honestly wish I could catch up a bit more. I have such a hard time sitting my ass down and just reading anymore that it's kind of pathetic, but a lot of the time I don't think it's fair to you all because I see several stories just drifting by with one or two comments, but I can never seem to get around to adding to the discussion myself.

Quote:
Yeah, I worried about that, but I needed something that could potentially wipe out an entire sapient population, but not necessarily all animal life, so I went with a plague. It was also intended, just a bit, to provide some sense of connection between the reader, with what we're going through, and the protagonist, and what she went through.

I can really understand, and at any other time I think it would be an interesting side-note that my science-brain would enjoy (though I still would have likely whipped out that Carlin quote), but due to, well, the current world, it's hard not to be reminded of just how bleak it is right now.


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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Names
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:28 pm 
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I finally got back to this!

There are two word choices I loved a lot: one is "lordly ratfolk", for the sheer contrast with the classic grimy, scurrying rodent populations, the other is the ambiguity of "lifetimes" when she thinks about the horses she had, because I have the impression she's starting to measure her life in horses' lifespans, rather than human ones, which is both a sadly poetic and deliciously realistic idea to me: the rider only has horses' lives as a point of reference for long periods of time, so she uses that. I love all the relationship she has with horses, it's the part where her (current) personality shines through the most IMO.

A minor point of contention is the information flow in the piece: whenever the rider thinks about the cities, her memory seems to fog up (no doubt because of countless identical experiences piling on her mind) that she keeps describing the same things with little to no new information. I guess it helps the mood, but not my patience :V for comparison, the first time the deal is mentioned I reread the sentence four times to be sure i didn't miss anything, so big was my brain starvation.

(The names of the dead carved on masonry also reminded me of the center of the Wastelands on Thamirelk where Hellbent carve the name of those who made it... and those who did not)

I like this journey into the life of the most long-suffering victims of Raiker, and I'm glad the Shifter makes his life a bit miserable from time to time. It's such a petty thing, but for that very reason a very believable one.

Thanks for sharing!

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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Names
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:13 pm 
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I finally got back to this!

I had almost forgotten about this piece! Thanks for reading it.

There are two word choices I loved a lot: one is "lordly ratfolk", for the sheer contrast with the classic grimy, scurrying rodent populations,

I had completely forgotten I put that in there. I do love those little world-building drop-ins I have a tendency to include in stories like this. I don't know if this is what I was thinking when I wrote this piece, but seeing you point it out now makes me think of the rats of NIMH.

the other is the ambiguity of "lifetimes" when she thinks about the horses she had, because I have the impression she's starting to measure her life in horses' lifespans, rather than human ones, which is both a sadly poetic and deliciously realistic idea to me: the rider only has horses' lives as a point of reference for long periods of time, so she uses that. I love all the relationship she has with horses, it's the part where her (current) personality shines through the most IMO.

I was very fond of the whole horse thing in this piece. I actually had a lot of fun in general with this story trying to put myself in the position of this character and how she would experience the world. What a hell it must be, ultimately...

A minor point of contention is the information flow in the piece: whenever the rider thinks about the cities, her memory seems to fog up (no doubt because of countless identical experiences piling on her mind) that she keeps describing the same things with little to no new information. I guess it helps the mood, but not my patience :V for comparison, the first time the deal is mentioned I reread the sentence four times to be sure i didn't miss anything, so big was my brain starvation.

Sorry about that. I haven't reread this one in a while, so I'll need to do that again look at your point here specifically.

(The names of the dead carved on masonry also reminded me of the center of the Wastelands on Thamirelk where Hellbent carve the name of those who made it... and those who did not)

I've always found the idea of carving the names of the dead very evocative, and the verse I mentioned in the comments about the little-known Harry Chapin song "Jenny" has just always stood out to me. And thinking of it in the context of a plane-wide plague that kills off nearly every sapient being just seemed so overwhelming that I wanted to include it. Combine that with the fact that the protagonist can no longer read, and thus cannot even read those names, it just adds another layer of tragedy. On some level, this is one of my favorite Raiker deals, though as he noted in a short, non-canon piece somewhere, there is no audience here to appreciate it.

I like this journey into the life of the most long-suffering victims of Raiker, and I'm glad the Shifter makes his life a bit miserable from time to time. It's such a petty thing, but for that very reason a very believable one.

Thanks for sharing!

Poor Raiker. He's just a misunderstood artist...

:paranoid:

:D

Thanks for reading, Huey!


Last edited by RavenoftheBlack on Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Names
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:21 am 
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Chilling as bleached bones. Well done.

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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Names
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:03 am 
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Chilling as bleached bones. Well done.

Thanks! I'm glad you liked it.


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