Hey all,

For those who might be interested in a D&D 3rd Edition romp, would you prefer Middle Earth (arguably the progenitor story of D&D as a concept), or else a totally different adventure on the high seas of Faerun in the Forgotten Realms? Both have some modifications.

Middle Earth is in the 4th age several generations AFTER the end of the destruction of the One Ring and end of Sauron. You would be hunting an artifact of great sentimental and cultural value to the elves that remained in Middle Earth. Player level about 12th.

In Faerun, you would be traveling east from a fictitious city port I created, through sea lanes, past the Moonshae Isles, until you reach the Sword Coast and travel north to Waterdeep hunting pirates. Player level about 12th.

A more detailed posting will be made if sufficient initial response favors something, to confirm interest.

Edit: Actual poll added. You can change your mind and select both if you are fine with either.

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We have a winner:
The Sea Dragon Sets Sail - Now Recruiting

You know, you can actually set up a poll if you want so people can see the votes instead of keeping a tally as they go through the thread.

~SE++

Any house rules / rules changes specific to either of those? (you can save sharing house rules that'll be the same in both; I'm more asking, for example, if half-orcs are banned in the Middle Earth game, etc.)

Well, I was going to save the actual changes for later since they didn't seem to take away from the fin the guys were having when I last ran them.

There are only changes in the Forgotten Realms to the point of origination, the continent west of Faerun. That was put into the 3.0 books as a "fill in your own stuff" area, anyway. Unsure if the novels ever dealt with the place, but if they did, don't expect me to follow. Other than that, my only caution would be to watch the "half-vampire, half-dragon, half-golem, half-celestial no whip mocha latte" classes. Everybody does it to a point, but I'm not looking to feed Timmy Power Gamer with these adventures. Having said that, I'm willing to consider just about anything except evil characters unless you have a good reason why he or she would do this since they would be in tight quarters with other players. Evil characters to be nothing but anarchists are generally bad for this format, and I'm not encouraging that style of play.

The changes to Middle Earth to make it playable in D&D from the books are more encompassing. That will be a separate reply, but I have to pull up my notes.

Changes made to Middle Earth to make it compatible as a sustainable campaign world using the D&D system.

1. There are no wizards or sorcerors. In respect to Gandalf, Sauron, and the other Maiar, wizardry went with them over the western seas.
2. The Uruk-hai survived the war. Saruman breeds an off-shoot of Uruks that are not beholden to the power of Sauron. When Sauron and Saruman are knocked off, these self-willed Uruks flee north into the wintry wastes north of the grey mountains to become nomadic barbarians, a people in their own rights (still evil, they're just not working for someone else this time).
3. Trolls (the elder stock that Morgoth took from to make 1st Age Trolls) eventually return to Middle Earth, using standard 3Ed stats for Trolls.
4. Durin VIII (or is it the VI?) returns to Moria following the end of the third age and begins to reclaim Moria. The center of dwarven culture rests, though, in Erebor, the Lonely Mountain. Moria will take some time to clear.
5. Owing to the efforts of the two unnamed Blue Wizards that came to Middle Earth with Saruman, Gandalf and Radagast, the Haradrim begin to boast psionic abilities.
6. With the total removal of the Valar and Maiar from Middle Earth and the start of the dominion of man, Iluvatar sets several Valar up to become "deities" in that they can grant clerical powers to followers. Religious orders form quickly. Thus, Psionics and Divine power are the two sources of magic remaining in Middle Earth for humans.
7. The Dwarves begin to research their lost arts of runic magic scripts and with the re-flowering of their lost crafts, they also begin to recover their lost birth-rates. They now harbor dreams of taking back Moria, and founding new kingdoms in the Blue Mountains and taking old holdings from the cold worms of the Grey Mountains.
8. The Elves of Greenwood decline after Iluvatar ends the "persistence of memories", whereby elves that die are eventually born into new bodies with their old memories intact. As they decline, they begin to revere Varda as humans revered Tulkas, and Varda began to grant them clerical powers. Like the Dwarves, the Elves of Mirkwood now have a growing birth rate, and eventually settle into the stats of 3Ed sylvan elves instead of the old Elves of Lorien, Gil-Galad and Rivendell.
9. To bring a sense of balance for reasons only known to Iluvatar, Melkor the Enemy is brought back from the Void and given dominion over evil men and beasts.
10. The Valar that now hold sway in the 4th age (but no direct interference, not even Avatars) are:
Tulkas - Humans (Arnor, Gondor and Ithilien)
Orome - Humans (Rohan)
Varda - Elves
Aule - Dwarves
Melkor - Evil races
Yavanna - Nature (Druids, mostly)

With the lack of arcane magic in Middle Earth, there are three means to create magic items in western Middle Earth.

1. Divine created items. All items created by clerical processes are aligned to good or evil, depending on who created them. An opposing alignment that picked such an object up and attempted to use it would get a nasty reaction.
2. Dwarf created items. Neutral in alignment, meaning both polar alignments can use them, however, dwarves don't give those up easily and expect them given back to the Kingdom that created them when the owner dies. They'll hunt down those who refuse, too.
3. Psionic created items. Usually involve part crystalline structure. Since the creation of psionic items is a very taxing process that can ruin a psion's health and shorten their lives, they usually do not create items for any one, no matter how much gold is offered. Rather, they might create a sword for a powerful hero to accomplish a mighty deed. The Haradrim tribe that created it might then expect it to be returned, depending on if the hero came from their bloodline or not.
4. Any weapons or armor left over from the first three ages of Middle Earth are now considered relics and mostly consist of Dwarven or Elvish make. These races jealously guard these ancient ties to a more powerful age gone-by. Any person foolish enough to steal one would probably have an entire kingdom or race declare war upon him to reclaim it. In game terms, PCs would not have routine access to weapons such as Glamdring or Gil-Galad's spear.
5. A fourth source of magic items is from the Easterling region, though this is hardly known in western Middle Earth. Most of these items rest in the hands of the noble class of the Easterling Empire's ruling clans.

Basically, this campaign setting is very scarce in magic resources as most D&D players think of magic. This is in an attempt to stay faithful to Tolkien's world and how he used magic in his novels. This means, however, that many ready-standbys from the DMG wondrous magic item tables would not be available in this setting since they can only be created through arcane magic knowledge. That should force players to get creative once again and re-think solutions to old problems.

Creatures in Middle Earth

This is a list of critters from the Middle Earth Bestiary. These creatures should definitely be included in a D&D Middle Earth campaign, plus any creatures from other sources such as monster compendiums.

Balrog - there just might be one left in Middle Earth somewhere.
Barrow-Wights
Bats, giant and bloodsucking varieties
Beornings - descendents of Beorn and solitary Northmen, skin changers from human to bear
Boars
Cold Drakes - no fire dragons remaining, but Cold Drakes may still exist in the Grey Mountains, sitting atop Dwarf treasures.
Crebain - large black crows used as messengers and spies
Eagles, giant
Ents
Gaurhoth - werewolves. Actually extinct in the books from the 1st age, but I think they'll end up surfacing in the ruins of Dol Guldur in southern Mirkwood.
Giants
Mewlips - evil undead spirits who drain victims.
Gallows weed -
Horses
Huorns
Kraken
Mumakil - Oliphaunts
Trolls
Orcs - specifically, Uruks
Phantoms of the Dead Marshes
Ponies
Spiders
Thrushes
Willows
Woses
Wargs

Obviously, that's not too large of a list. So, I had to inject some other creatures, though the challenge was to explain the appearance of new monsters. Three good explanations might be:
1. They crawled out of the breeding pits of Dol Guldur, the Morgul Vale, or the desecrated ruins of ancient Angmar (Bara-dur was utterly destroyed)
2. They crawled out of the Mines of Moria or from the Misty Mountains, or from the Grey Mountains (the Grey Mountains used to hold Utumno and Angband, the breeding pits and armory of Melkor the Enemy).
3. They were always there, but just never entered into Tolkien's narration (gotta be careful with using this one too much, though).

Some of the creatures I've added in:
Yuan-ti (the nemesis of the Harad)
Giant Scorpions and other desert vermin
Will-o-wisps
Many spirit creatures from Oriental Adventures, though I won't say which.

One of the biggest changes I made was the survival of the Uruk-hai past the end of the 3rd Age. Half-Orc barbarians are too good to pass up plus the reasons below. Goblins in Moria were orcs, all enslaved to the will of Sauron. When Sauron was destroyed, they were rendered witless and slaughtered to the brink of extinction. Those that survived became minor creatures of little significance, according to Tolkien's notes. Durin VIII would have been sure to scour as much of Moria as he could, and Kobolds from other campaign worlds would have presented more of a challenge.

That's why I changed the story so that the Uruk-hai did not all become witless when the Ring was destroyed. In all cases, Uruks were superior to Mordor and Moria orcs, Moria orcs being a sub-race of Mordor Orcs. And although Sauron bred the first Uruks, half-human/half-orcs, Saruman also bred many for his assault on Helm's Deep. I basically said that if Saruman bred them to not be beholden to the Ring of Power and Sauron's will, then they could be useful to Saruman should he challenge Sauron one day. So, when Saruman was removed from power at Isengard, and then Sauron destroyed shortly after, the remnants of the free-willed Uruk-hai fled north. These uruks have the stats of standard 3rd Ed half-orcs, and are thus a pretty hardy lot, plus them being Barbarians, too.

Psionics and Shamans/Shugenjas

The basic premise around having psionics in Middle Earth is for two reasons.

1. There were some psionics going on when Frodo was having a conversation with Galadriel. I can't remember if that was only in the movie, or if it was also in the book. In any case, since sorcery was the province of Gandalf and the four other Maiar wizards (divine servants of the Valar), arcane magic left Middle Earth with them. You can't really run a campain with just divine magic in it, or you take out a lot of options from D&D. Since psionics were at least hinted at, that leaves open the door to replace sorcery.

2. In Tolkien's notes, he mentioned two unnamed "Blue Wizards" that went south to Harad at the same time that Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast went to the regions of Rohan and Gondor. These Blue Wizards were never mentioned in the books, nor does it really discuss what they did, or if they succeeded. So this gives the psionics a chance to fill in the gap left by a lack of sorcery.

Say the Blue Wizards began to train Haradrim families how to affect the outside world with their own mind's power, which is basic psionics at its core. It starts as only being able to affect their own bodies. That begins to change their bloodlines and successive generations get stronger, allowing them to affect the outside world as well. Now, since the Blue Wizards only seem to have traveled to the Harad region, it stands to reason that psionic power in Middle Earth is tied to Haradrim bloodlines since all the other human bloodlines and other races did not have that training and so could only boast the rare wild talent. Although there are rumors of where else the unnamed Blue Wizards might have gone, that's the only definitive place I've allowed.

I used the psionics rules from 3.5 Edition, rather than 3rd, because the revisions from 3.5 don't affect other 3rd Edition mechanics much, but make the psion a much more playable character than the 3rd Edition rules allowed.

Shamans, on the other hand, are a different matter entirely. I've read/heard about various forms of devilry among the evil peoples of Middle Earth, though, I'm not sure if it was Peter Jackson, Rankin/Bass, Ralph Bakshi, etc, or if it was actually from Tolkien origins. In any case, it hardly matters since the shamans emerge in areas where Tolkien didn't write about in the Lord of the Rings. It fits well into carrying beyond the end of the 3rd Age. Shamans and Shugenja in their own respects are the only other sources of arcane magic in Middle Earth beyond Bards. And since I control both types of NPCs, it isn't an issue that should cause too much problems since you won't see mages chucking about fireballs and Wishes, or Polymorph Other, etc with impunity.

Yet, though Tolkien's handling of arcane magic was both very encompassing but subtle and delicate so as not to overpower the actions of the Hobbits in his story, the world of Middle Earth had many, many forms of magic and hinted at as much magic as one might find in the Forgotten Realms. Powerful magic items and massive spells/enchantments were actually fairly commonplace as Frodo and Bilbo traveled about. As Frodo's party approached Weathertop, they saw flashes of lightning atop Weathertop (can't remember which direction the lightning was traveling, though), and that could have easily been a standard D&D lightning bolt. However, much of the arcane might lie in the grasp of Ring Wraiths, the Maiar (see the Silmarilion if you are unsure of the group Maiar, though they include Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron and the Balrogs) or the Eldar and Noldor (the wisest elves from across the western sea).

The Shugenjas from Oriental Adventures, though, are particularly challenging. A mix of sorceror and priest, they are basically an elemental sorceror mixed in with a priestly caste split along elemental lines and family ties. Care has to be taken to avoid trampling over Tolkien's restraint in avoiding magic gone wild. Of all sources of arcane power, the Shugenja has the greatest possibility of being very "un-Tolkienish".

Why some classes only have a couple of races that can play them:

Why? Well, it basically fits with how I see the classes in a Middle Earth setting.

A 3rd Ed. Bard has both arcane and clerical spells in his repertoire. Yet, the arcane spells deal mostly with illusion and charm effects, understanding/reading ancient languages, all areas of which 3rd Age elves excelled at. Now, the clerical aspects of the 3rd Edition Bard are also covered well by elves. Healing, removing diseases, cleansing things, etc. were often done by elves in Tolkien's novels. Except for the Numenorians who could do only a few of those things, Elves were really the only race that could closely model a 3rd Edition Bard.

So I see a 3Ed Bard as an Elf or Half-Elf. In the books, no other race could really do such things, hence the limitation to Elvish blood.

I see Barbarians limited only to those races that would be living in the harsh northern lands. That would make Humans, Half-Orcs and Dwarves the only ones that would likely come from those Northern lands. And of course, a Hobbit Barbarian is ludicrous. A Hobbit Thief, maybe, but a barbarian? Bahh!

Paladins
Paladins are first and foremost tied to the deity's needs, which is usually administered by the church the Paladin is attached to (only the rare Paladin has a personal conversation with their deity). Elves and Hobbits are too chaotic, Dwarves are too tied to their familial ties to foresake it all for the church. That leaves Humans and Human half-breeds.

Soulknives and Psions - Humans, specifically, the peoples of Harad are psionic according to the story line I developed. That means you have to have Haradrim blood to be anything more than a wild talent with one random power, if any power at all. That limits things to Humans and Human half-breeds again.

Base classes allowed in The Lord of the Rings, 4th Age.

Barbarian - Human, Dwarf, Half-Orc
Bard - Elf, Half-Elf
Cleric - Human, Elf, Dwarf, Hobbit, Half-Orc, Half-Elf
Druid - Elf, Human, Half-Elf
Fighter - Human, Elf, Dwarf, Hobbit, Half-Orc, Half-Elf
Ranger (needs work, maybe) - Human, Elf, Half-Elf, Hobbit
Paladin - Human, Half-Elf, Half-Orc
Scout - Hobbit, Human, Elf, Dwarf, Half-Orc, Half-Elf
Soulknife - Human, Half-Elf, Half-Orc
Mindbender - Human, Half-Elf, Half-Orc

Races usable as PCs
Elf
Half-Elf
Human
Dwarf
Half-Orc
Hobbit

Nationalities of Humans for specific classes
Mindbender - Requires Haradrim blood from a Mindbending family, either 100% or 50% for purposes of game play. Half-bloods require raising in area that has a Mindbender to train.
Soulknife - Requires Haradrim blood from a Mindbending family, either 100% or 50% for purposes of game play. Half-bloods require raising in area that has a Mindblade to train.

Barbarian prestige classes - King/Queen of the Wild
Fighter prestige classes - Cavalier, Duelist, Halfling Outrider, Order of the Bow Initiate
Scout prestige classes - Dungeon Delver, Thief-Acrobat,
Bard prestige classes - Virtuoso
Cleric - Contemplative, War Priest, Sacred Fist
Paladin prestige classes - Contemplative, Consecrated Harrier, Holy Liberator
Soulknife prestige classes - Ghash, War Mind
Mindbender prestige classes - Ghash, Metamind
Ranger prestige classes - Deepwood Sniper, Foe Hunter, King/Queen of the Wild, Tempest
Druid prestige classes - King/Queen of the Wild, Verdant Lord

So as you can see, there are a large number of options to a person in Middle Earth, but fireball fiends are not really going to enjoy this. Having said that, the "Ghash" is actually Uruk for fire, and that refers to the Pyrokinetic prestige class, so there's hope for firebugs.

Im definitely interested in both of these concepts.

Is it 3.0 and not 3.5? Im okay with that there just might be a bit of a reverse learning curve.

Yes, it's 3.0 mainly. See, I bought my collection before 3.5, which is unfortunate because 3.5 fixed balance issues, but I refuse to re-buy everything on principle (can't afford it anyway). Psionics, as mentioned, are 3.5, but it actually meshes better than using the 3.0 psionics rules. One option I have adopted is that Psionics = arcane, in that a dispel magic works like a dispel psionics, and vice versus, so that wizard/sorceror defenses can't be side-stepped by psions.

All right, a number of people have read the posts, but not voted. Are there people interested in either adventure who would want to see either adventure start up? Please reply if you would generate a character for one or the other. Just trying to gauge interest. Thanks.

I would be interested in generating a character for the seafaring adventure; I'll add my vote.

I don't have any serious understanding of Middle-Earth, aside from having read the Hobbit and LotR and watching the movies.. I feel like all the extra custom rules would be too difficult to get my hands around.

But I have refrained from voting because I will not be able to roll up a character until a little over two weeks from now.

I think both sound interesting, to be honest. I just don't have the time to dedicate to a play-by-post, so I haven't voted so as not to influence anything based on vote totals.

I start back to work tomorrow, and start working in a new shop where I wont spend every minute of my work day on the computer. Once I get a feel for my activity level I'd love to play in either, and would prolly just need a little bit of hand holding when building a character.

The only thing keeping me from signing on right this minute is the fact I'm DMing two PbP games, playing in another three, plus playing Moderator here. In addition to work and rebuilding a car.

Gah, when you write it all out it sounds like I have no life.

Is that all? Lol

Well theres also signing up for more college courses, studying for promotion, preparing to spend six months overseas, and trying to find the time to fix the fact that the other car's rear main seal bleeds oil like a mutha...

Oh and mountain biking three days a week.



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Once I know what the plan is though I will definitely start drumming up a character. Even if I end up not joining. I love building characters *shrug*

No worries to anyone that wants to wait a bit. It gives me some time to recover my notes anyway. Also, no problems getting stepped through character creation. I have most to all of the 3rd Edition Faerun sources, and I know Middle Earth like the back of my hand. I can also help you come up with backstories.

Think on this: if we go with Faerun, you could even hail from other worlds. I can handle just about anything 3rd Edition except for complete books (didn't buy them, sorry!). This might include a character you have assuming the following:
1. The character is within reason...see at the top of the thread for restrictions/cautions.
2. Your character wealth has to conform to the rest of the party for parity. No loaded Hermione Granger bags allowed! (Deathly Hallows joke)

That's it. Just remember that a Tasselhoff Burfoot relative might get thrown off the ship for theft...lol.

I would never suggest that its okay to pirate content.

But if it ever came down to wanting to include content, but not having the books, I do have quite an extensive 3.0 / 3.5 collection and could send you what you needed.

Just an offer, one you're very much free to decline.

And dont steal! kids, its not nice.

No, that's OK, my job doesn't permit piracy, and I've heard the complete books killed 3.0, but I'll still review existing characters if they're within range of the others, I'm not in the game of being a dictator, especially in this format.

Edit: i'll draft a list of what I have Faerun and non-Faerun alike, and you'll see there's oodles of prestige classes to add flavor to new characters, so most existing characters won't likely be too crazy. Middle Earth is a bit more restricted... See above higher up in the thread. Attempts have been made to retain the feel of Middle Earth so that's not going to appeal to everyone.