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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:48 pm 
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Drafted BO3 because the World Championships inspired me to try again, ended up with this after P1P1'ing another Aphemia.

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Looks like a disaster to me. Okay, so now I have tons of small creatures (I could add even more with Hoplite), but I have no token payoffs (never saw Phalanx Tactics) and the power level seems low as hell. A single 2/3 ground creature blanks many of my attackers, the 1/4 green reach creature does the same for my flyers. That's actually why I drafted Bronze Sword. Maybe I should include that card, the equip cost looks so high though.

Maybe Aspect is not good here (RIP thedevilwuster) since grinding out value is not how I'm going to win.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:46 pm 
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Probably not so great with so many low powered creatures, I agree.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:08 am 
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Well you must run Hateful Eidolon, there's no excuse not to. But apart from that, we already said that we couldn't make BW work, so I doubt this deck will do much. How are you gonna win when your best threat is a common 3/3 flier?

You could try to build that flying, vigilance, lifelink voltron that Wuster describes (include Wings again), but you kinda fold to removal.

edit: Actually, since Wings and Sentinel's Eyes stay in the game after your first voltron dies, you can make another, so just go for that. And whenever it dies, you draw a card with Eidolon in play ;)


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:14 am 
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Indeed on Hateful. It has went in every Rakdos I have drafted so far. It's a good one drop. Thief has served me well also. It's ability is situational for sure but there are an awful lot of enchantment creatures running around in this set.
SE has served me very well also but more so in constructed. It's a shame that about the only thing to boggle up is the Druid but combined with SE's low cost escape it is hard not to run it in either format if you are in white and vigilance is needed.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:22 pm 
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Indeed on Hateful. It has went in every Rakdos I have drafted so far. It's a good one drop. Thief has served me well also. It's ability is situational for sure but there are an awful lot of enchantment creatures running around in this set.
SE has served me very well also but more so in constructed. It's a shame that about the only thing to boggle up is the Druid but combined with SE's low cost escape it is hard not to run it in either format if you are in white and vigilance is needed.

Nice idea with Paradise Druid, will always be hexproof with Vigi :D


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:02 am 
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Went 1-2. Won first match quite easily against an opponent who was clearly not very experienced, but then the weaknesses showed up for real in matches 2 & 3. The power level simply wasn't there. Even if I could clear a way with removal for some turns, I would eventually run out and the rest of my creatures can't attack. I'm not getting the B/W combination right now, it seems like it needs certain cards (Heliod's Pilgrim searching up Mire's Grasp for example) to work.

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This is my next draft. It started out poorly (P1P1 Heliod's Pilgrim, P1P2 Elspeth's Nightmare, P1P3 Caryatid) and I was getting bad vibes from the previous failed B/W drafts. P2P1 was another Aphemia (someone REALLY wants me to draft this), but I wound up drafting green because it felt like the only open color, and I didn't get clear signals on the second color. I'm happy however I picked a late blue Omen in pack 2, because P3P1 was the Kiora saga and that locked me to UG.

Not sure about exact build though. I'm a bit hesitant to run the green saga because it could mill Kiora, but then Relentless Pursuit could do the same thing. -1 Skola Gravedancer +1 Vexing Seagull seems like a possible switch for curve reasons. I could also splash Elspeth's Nightmare using the green Omen, idk.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:45 pm 
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Tough choices. Would feel bad to mill Kiora, but you have a lot of escape creatures who want to be milled. I think you could go 2 routes with this. Could run it as is and accept the risk with beatdown as alt plan, or try to focus on surviving till you draw Kiora.

If you want to focus on Kiora wins, then I’d -2 pursuits, -1 Grovedancer, -2 caryatid, +1 snake, +1 lion fish, +1 turtle, +1 green omen, +1 gull. This increases your ability to dig for Kiora and stay alive till you can cast. More instant speed plays to get lion fish taps on a threat, and use escape creatures to aggressively trade and grind out value coming back to trade again. This plan might be worse than going as is, since if Kiora is on the bottom the other plan (ramping into your top end and fueling escapes) is watered down. I’d personally start as is since 2x pursuits and 5x escapers will be more consistent than 1x Kiora. This is the best type of build for pursuit, cause escapers can effectively make it a chance to “draw” 3 - putting an escaper in the yard, drawing another creature plus a land. I think it makes it a more powerful option than the alternatives to focus on Kiora.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:36 pm 
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Think I'd prefer the Kiora route. Multiple escaped Chimeras are nice and all but Kiora wins the game on the spot.

Looks like your best draft so far imo. Though I wonder why you never have any Nexus Wardens - they're just awesome. They block almost anything and trigger more often than you might think. Nice target for auras, too.

That being said, you want the Deathtouch snake and the 0/5 Flash Turtle as blockers - the gull too so you don't die through the air. I did mention Nexus Wardens, right? Ditch the Pursuits - Divination is a nice effect, especially when fueling your graveyard has additional benefit, but milling your "I win button" is not. Lose the no-name two-drop as the last cut. Maaaaaaybe find another slot for the green 3-drop that gains you life - just to give you a bit more "reach".


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:58 am 
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Let us know what you did, results, and thoughts. Inquiring minds want to know!

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:11 am 
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Okay :D I decided not to switch to the defensive build you outlined because Kiora is just one card. I have tons of escape that will benefit from self-mill, I can't be weakening my deck for just that one card. I ran the deck as-is for two matches.

Match 1: against an opponent with Thassa, I won game 1 after Thassa never managed to manifest (Return to Nature killing Witness of Tomorrow is so strong). They also had Callaphe, which I used One with the Stars on before I realized that doesn't turn off the ability. I would have done it regardless, but the ability did mean I wasn't able to double-spell later in the game. Still, don't think I could've chosen not to remove the Callaphe. Lost game 2: I mulliganed a no-lander into a 6-lander which I had to keep. They had two of the UR uncommon flyer which I was reluctant to use One with the Stars on. I did have Spider, but no cards to escape with. After hitting several times they further decided to Aspect of Manticore one of them, which forced the One with the Stars, but on 6 life they flashed in Vexing Gull, did two damage from the abilities, and hit for the remaining 4. Game 3 never finished because my internet cut out on turn 2. RIP.

Match 2: lost game 1 against an opponent with Eutropia. He had tons and tons of enchantments to go with it too, literally every creature he played aside from Eutropia was an enchantment creature. He had Eutropia again in game 2, but stumbled on 3 lands while I had Caryatid + 4-power creature. Jammed Kiora and he conceded. In game 3, I boarded in Elspeth's Nightmare as an extra way to remove Eutropia. Opponent had T2 Setessan Champion, as well as Eutropia, but then shockingly only had one enchantment. Even the creatures he played (Beetle & Caryatid) weren't enchantments. I had the luxury of not playing Kiora into his open mana because I was afraid of a counterspell, and when he revealed he didn't have a counter, I played Kiora and he conceded.

1-1 right now and will finish the run some other time.

I get the feeling I should splash Elspeth's Nightmare maindeck. I already have two Caryatids to cast it with, and I can easily cut an Island for a Swamp (only 6 blue cards after all, and the Caryatids also make blue mana). That's three black sources and I wouldn't even need the green Omen. Elspeth's Nightmare isn't a bomb and not something I would usually splash for, but it is a good card, and with two Caryatids it feels almost free. As for Nexus Wardens, I only saw one of them in the draft, and I drafted something else over it. Don't remember what, though. The Viper I have in the sideboard for now for matches against other green decks. Are these two cards maindeckable?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:55 am 
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Banedon wrote:
Okay :D I decided not to switch to the defensive build you outlined because Kiora is just one card. I have tons of escape that will benefit from self-mill, I can't be weakening my deck for just that one card. I ran the deck as-is for two matches.

and then you proceed with your game results that are:

2-0 with that one card
1-3 without

;)

I'm not a fan of your splash-idea. Regarding the maindeckability of spider and Wardens: I only played Bo1 drafts so there is only mainboard and I'd say 1 spider and up to 3 Wardens are always fine. Beyond that you need to look at specifics.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:11 pm 
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To be fair, one no-Kiora “loses” was a disconnect and shouldn’t count as a loss based on info provided (no info on board state before disconnect to lean predicted outcome one way or the other). Another loss was a mulliganed 6 land no spell opening hand, which seems loss more attributable to variance than deck strength. More like 1-1 in fair games. I think your take of defend till Kiora is viable and I’ve seen high profile players take that strategy for a single bomb. I just think pursuits plus escape in quantities owned is strong enough to justify running with the risk of milling Kiora - to keep the deck stronger in games she’s on bottom of deck. Think it’s defensible either way. If no Kiora drafted I’d run green saga too - but pursuits is my power level cut off for mill risk in a deck where “drawing” 3 is a real possibility.

I agree about splash idea for main deck, but think it’s good sideboard for certain matchups. Thinking it’s best value as a splash card is graveyard hate, due to probability of not being able to cast till later in the game when opp might be top decking and killing a 2 power creature is less relevant than controlling board state early.

Not sure if just creature type brain fart or misread, but he was asking about viper, not spider. Viper is maindeckable - more replacement level filler if not playing a defensive build cause the black +2/-1 aura is a thing people play and a 1/1 doesn’t play offense well. But it’s a good tool in builds with defensive plan like surviving till you draw your bomb, and is something you’d actively want to play.

And yes, Wardens is maindeckable. Goes down in value if your enchantment count is low, but is still a 4 butt for 3 mana that plays defense well early. If you have a high enchantment count it’s pretty darn strong with incidental life gain triggers. Particularly strong in defensive builds. Serviceable in more aggressive builds with high enchantment count, as helps the race, but is more replacement level in those and bad filler in aggressive builds with low enchantment count.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:41 am 
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To be fair, one no-Kiora “loses” was

Yeah, I was only abusing the stats to make my point - hence the ;)
Quote:
Not sure if just creature type brain fart or misread, but he was asking about viper, not spider. Viper is maindeckable - more replacement level filler if not playing a defensive build cause the black +2/-1 aura is a thing people play and a 1/1 doesn’t play offense well. But it’s a good tool in builds with defensive plan like surviving till you draw your bomb, and is something you’d actively want to play.

That was a failure, I meant the 1/1 deathtouch, which is the viper. Nice card to have when you want to play defense. Spider - the uncommon 1/2 reach with escape - on the other hand is a great card.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:28 am 
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Well, one of the losses was when Kiora would not have saved me.

Having said that, Kiora literally won me match 3, and then again in match 4. I didn't realize just how busted the card was, I thought it was something similar to Elspeth Conquers Death from Standard, which had a weak 2nd mode, but Kiora is on another level entirely. All three of Kiora's effects are worth at least a card, in fact they're probably worth more than a card. Sleep for example is a strong card in aggressive decks, while In Bolas's Clutches is a veritable bomb.

After going 3-1 I punted match 5. Game 1 I had no chance, since I drew only 2 lands in my top 12 cards. Game 2 I sided out Elspeth's Nightmare because opponent had Mogi's Favor, which can kill Caryatid and therefore take me off black mana, but somehow boarded in Viper on the vague theory that opponent had green creatures so it'd be good (this is also a X/1 creature??). Then I proceeded to punt by throwing away a 6/6 Beetle. Opponent was on 5 life and the board was Typhon + 6/6 Beetle + Arachnir vs. his 2/3, 2x 2/2s, and 0/1 (from Discordant Piper), plus he had the rare +4/+4 mantle aura in hand having just returned it the previous turn. I attacked. Of course he took the trade and I lived to regret it. Should've just waited while the Beetle grew, forcing him to play Final Death - which as it turned out he didn't have.

Didn't help that I could've suicided my Typhon later to make it 7/7 and block his Underworld Charger, but I didn't, and decided to escape my Chimaera instead to trade. Opponent had a bigger graveyard than me, which meant of course I couldn't bring back my Chimaera the next turn while he could bring back his Charger, and sacrificing the Typhon was no longer an alternative. I wound up using One with the Stars on the Charger, which meant opponent's 10/6 boar the next turn forced its way through the board stall and won the game. Sheesh. After winning two matches on the back of Kiora, I ought to have realized that I could be patient because Kiora will eventually win me the game, I just have to draw it. But then, if I play badly and lose, I can't complain. In hindsight I should probably have brought in turtle, which neutralizes the Charger.

Arachnir was once again mediocre. I'm really not seeing it I'm afraid. The escape cost is not cheap, and as a 1-mana card, it's not killing anything relevant (off the top of my head the only common X/1 flyer is the black harpy, which is already filler). There aren't that many flyers either. It's possible it's a good card - it sure [i]sounds[/] good on paper - but it's repeatedly failing to impress me. The rare +4/+4 aura however impressed whenever it was played against me.

On to next draft, I guess.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:51 am 
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P1P1'ed Atris over Banishing Light, which was probably not correct, but I wanted to try out the rare and besides in my experience so far in the format, power level wins games. Pick 2 was Beetle over mostly nothing, and then pick 3 I was offered (and did not take) a Furious Rise. Wound up with this Sultai-colored deck that nonetheless has several bombs.

Not too sure what the last cards are (haven't adjusted the manabase either). I could cut down on the black - Aspect of Lamprey should be a lot better in this deck than the previous, but it's also rather filler, and so is Heirophant. Instead I could play Return to Nature & Nexus Wardens & Skola Wardancer, two of which work pretty well with Eutropia, and it solidifies my mana as a UG deck with a black splash. Then board in Heirophant & Aspect against decks they're effective against. Alternatively, I can keep the cards as-is, and go for maximum power level.

Somewhere along the draft I passed a Mystic Repeal. How good is that card? I'm sure it's playable, and when it's good it'll be REALLY good, but I'm worried about the times it's dead.

Setessan Training might not be as good as Skloa Wardancer. They're both enchantments, but while Trample is great with high-powered creatures like the ones I have, Training also unplayable if I don't have a creature out.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:06 am 
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Banedon wrote:
After winning two matches on the back of Kiora, I ought to have realized that I could be patient because Kiora will eventually win me the game, I just have to draw it.

Yes and you will draw it unless you mill it as long as you don't die and it isn't literally your last card in the library. But that ship has sailed and 4-2 is a nice payoff :)
Remember this approach when you open Kiora or Dream Trawler again. Don't apply it to any rare though - rather obvious.

Next pool looks nice, I agree with splashing blue for the two gold cards, they're quite powerful. You can lose the Brine Giant for you already have enough big butts. Blue omen is nice at any stage so you might even keep it but not plan on casting it t2 - this implicates fewer Islands. Nessian Boar can finish games for you, the only trick to it is to not attack into blockers that are weaker than a card. Give him trample or flying (Eutropia) and you're in great shape. You can also get a lot of tempo by killing multiple blockers as long as they don't kill the big pig. Oh and then there's the niche case of exploiting him as a Taunting Elf so the rest of your team can swing in for lethal.

You know I lilke Wardens, so give them a chance ;)
Lose the Berserker for one - you still have so many 4-5 power creatures.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:29 pm 
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Banedon wrote:

Somewhere along the draft I passed a Mystic Repeal. How good is that card? I'm sure it's playable, and when it's good it'll be REALLY good, but I'm worried about the times it's dead.


Repeal is very good. Putting card on bottom is better than Naturalize kills cause it doesn’t feed opps graveyard strategies. Naturalize has more targets but really lyre is the only artifact you care to hit. In this set you’ll almost always have a target for repeal, and one mana cheaper is relevant. Pro level players are pretty high on it. Especially in Bo3 I’d look to pick one up for my pool.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:54 am 
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Went 3-0 then 0-2. First loss opponent had really good deck (2x Rise to Glory, 2x Banishing Light, Ashiok, Taranika), which is still beatable, except I flooded out hard in games 2 and 3. Literally made every land drop till the end of the game. Second loss opponent had Dream Trawler and played it on turn 6 both times. I wasn't drawing dead - I could draw Boar and force the Trawler to trade, or Hydra's Growth and hope opponent didn't have removal - but conceded anyway. My God, I wish they stopped designing cards that auto-win limited on their own, or at least make them mythic. That said, opponent did have a nice deck to support Dream Trawler with, so kudos to him for drafting that.

As for deck build:

-1 Omen of the Sea (too mana intensive)
-1 Brine Giant (not necessary, already have lots of big creatures)
+1 Aspect of Lamprey (because deck is becoming more black-focused)
+1 Venomous Heirophant (same reason)
-2 Island +2 Swamp

Left Return to Nature in the sideboard, not sure if correct.

Next draft: P1P1, Purphoros's Intervention or Iroas's Blessing? I can't believe Draftaholics has the latter above the former. Seriously, is the red intervention weaker?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:26 am 
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In a vacuum Intervention is better. For the same mana investment, you deal 6 to a target without risk of 2-for-1 with opp blowing up aura target. Way more flexible in curve with X cost, and the option to toss an elemental at their face.

Synergies can make blessing better (do more work with fetch, recursion, sac, historic, constellation synergies), but on their own I think it’s easy Intervention.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:39 am 
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Banedon wrote:
My God, I wish they stopped designing cards that auto-win limited on their own, or at least make them mythic.

Dream Trawler at mythic would've been better, yes.

Aside from that, this format was awesome compared to the previous Arena formats. I remember DOM as a great format, too, but the rest was mediocre to plain awful (GRN, M19). ELD was especially tragic for the difference between the actual format and the format on Arena with the way bots underdrafted the blue mill cards.


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