I agree that minus only walkers were better and more balanced, but I think it's still just a case of design - Narset, parter of veils is minus only and is still a miserable card to play against

Ok after losing four more matches and winning none I definitely do not understand the meta. Someone explain how Sultai food is supposed to beat GB Adventures for example - that 1/1 Deathtouch guy stops all my ground creatures (i.e. I can't aggro him), and they have an endless parade of 2-for-1s that just grind me out. It's very depressing to play Nissa, get hit by Swift End, and then still have to stare down a 2/3 lifelink. Plus, Lovestruck Beast is too big to block. I'm almost guessing that the Ethereal Absolution in some MC Sultai lists is for this matchup.

I played a game with Temur Reclamation instead and had more success. Temur Reclamation's biggest weakness was always aggro, and with few aggro decks right now + fewer Teferi it seems the meta is suitable. Because it's enchantment-based, it also makes a lot of stuff (like maindeck Noxious Grasp) embarrassing. Stuff planeswalkers though, Teferi paralyzes the deck.

EDIT: So playing Temur Reclamation I lost a match to Simic Food. But it's because opponent had the likes of Questing Beast and Brazen Borrower to actually put on a clock. This is completely unlike the Sultai version.

My win rate in Eldraine traditional standard is still abyssmal - maybe 20%, and that's including the Golos games

You could try Veil of Summer, that'll protect you from Swift End and send the Murderous Rider to the GY. As far as Lovestruck, you'll need a Nissa Activated land that you turn into an Elk. That's a little to late for a turn 2 or 3 Lovestruck though. However, a Wicked Wolf will cure all of your woes. It kills everything in BG adventures and is immune to their removal.

Banedon, you just have to learn fair Magic. Stop with that outside-the-box nonsense like Nexus

What really sux about the BG adventures deck is the Innkeeper. Opponent casts 1 card, draws 2 more.

The Great Henge can help a little.

Great Henge is unplayable in a 60+ Oko Meta.

lol @ ppl complaining about competitiveness in standard, a format dedicated to winning at all costs.

Agreed. When I first built my Golgari I expected to see myself playing so many more Henge than I have. One thing I do know is the inclusion of a playset of Ceratops has been a great prescient choice for meeting Oko decks.

I'm seeing a parallel to arpgs Diablo 2 and Path of Exile in the current meta. At some point in those games - due to power creep - character regeneration mechanics were so strong that the only realistic way to die was to get one-shot. That was bad because the designers couldn't really create challenges anymore without using such one-shot-mechanics.

I'm recognizing that effect in cards Torbran, Thane of Red Fell and Embercleave that just blindside the opponent for lethal out of nowhere. Not really fun when you're winning for 5+ rounds and then all of a sudden you're dead.

Though I'm not advocating to remove these cards at this point, of course. Could as well erase Mountains with them then.

Thing is, WotC might have taken power creep too far, every set gets stronger cards to push sales.

I do board in Veil of Summer but it's just one card - and opponent might not draw it. Without Swift End the Veil of Summer is usually dead in my hand. Wicked Wolf can't kill Lovestruck Beast unless I have 2+ food, too, and those aren't trivial to come by. But as I said I don't get the meta. How would you sideboard against GB adventures with a typical Sultai list?

When I play against The Great Henge with an Oko deck, I'm often behind in tempo, so when the Henge comes down I can barely +1 it with Oko (if I even have Oko on the battlefield) - Oko just dies and I effectively give my opponent an elk for free. I imagine Embercleave works the same way.

@Sol77 well it's not like I play only unfair decks - in the past several metas I've played Nexus, Monored, Selesnya tokens, Bant Manipulation, Temur Reclamation, Monowhite, Monoblue, Bant Golos, etc. But it's certainly possible I'm much better with certain macro-archetypes than others. I can't explain it. Possibly Temur Reclamation, like Nexus, is capable of going over the top of most decks and I'm just more accustomed to playing these decks. idk.

Oh, I was mostly messing with you, but let's try to be analytical:
I think, that with the exception of mono blue and maybe WW, those decks all share that you wouldn't care if your opponent brought poker cards. You let him do his thing for a while while you assemble your catapult with a 20-damage stone. Or in the case of RWD just play your 16-of Lightning Strike for the win

Now I've mostly played midrange, ever since I got the wildcards for the Golgari deck in GRN. That deck was amazing, while you lost most game-1s, you could transform to adapt to anything: vs Aggro - bring Wildgrowth Walker and friends, vs Control - bring value, Vivien Reid etc. At a very basic level that might be the key difference to all those strategies that go over the top. You have to find a way through, not above.

edit:
Btw, quote from Nick Prince:


No idea how true that is though, I haven't played the matchup yet. I actually see quite some BG Adventures in Bo1 right now, but my quest says 30 white. Losing just the same as you do ;D

Nick Prince is much more likely to be right than me, but still, I just don't get it. Like, I just got destroyed by a Sultai sacrifice deck that kept looping Cauldron Familiars which I can't attack through. I could turn his Witch's Ovens into 3/3s, but those are exactly big enough to block my 3/3 Nissa lands, which were the only real attackers I had. How am I supposed to win? Post-board I brought in Questing Beast because no choice, then it gets turned into an elk which is again exactly big enough to be blocked by his 3/3s. This doesn't even take into account the Massacre Girls he has in his deck.

Someone write a guide to Food please, I completely don't get it

Hmmm.. gain more value than your opponent. On every turn.

So you said Sultai with Cat, Oven and Oko. Sure, an opposing Oko can do all the same **** that yours can.

But while I know the Cat-Oven combo can be quite annoying as a stalling mechanism, I don't see how you die to it. We're probably not talking 20x Cat ETB? You have nothing to kill the Cat, but how is he stopping your gigantic Krasis? How does the board look like? Cat can't chump-block everything. Nissa makes a 3/3 every turn and threatens ultimate, Oko can make a 3/3 every other turn or turn the Nissa lands into 6/6s.

Vraska could kill the Oven, if you run her. Casualties of War might be just what you want in a long, grindy match - massive value. But be careful when to cast it for Veil/counter can ruin your day there. But still, bring in those value bombs and remove low-impact "filler" like Paradise Druid or OuaT.

That is a controversial topic as that lowers your chance of a "free win" t2 Oko or t3 Nissa, but I prefer being in a spot where I win a long game. I hate depending on a perfect starting hand to which I might need to mull and then having to close out the game asap.

He stopped my gigantic Krasis with 1) Massacre Girl, 2) Noxious Grasp, and 3) Swift End ... plus if I kept animating Nissa lands and trade them off I can't make gigantic Krasis ... and he was able to sneak in damage at various points, which added up quickly when he had Oven (which swiftly became multiple Ovens, too). It's like dying to Revenge of Ravens in limited. His board was often something like cat cat goose 3/3 elk Wicked Wolf with tons of food backup, didn't seem like I could attack through that.

Maybe I should have aggressively turned his Ovens into 3/3s. Let them hit Oko, who ticks up at +2 anyway, and negate the value of his Massacre Girl. I'll give it a try again tomorrow.

What do I board out against this deck? Like, take this standard Sultai list: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.a ... =11-1-2019. What do I cut? What do I bring in?

- Oko's metagame share increased through the tournament from 69% of Day 1 to 71% of Day 2 to 75% of the top 8 to 100% of the top 4

- Every major non-Oko archetype posted a win rate below 50% even though the entire field was gunning for Oko

- The best deck was Sultai Sacrifice, boasting a win rate of 67%

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/my ... tchup-data

Okay, so your Krasis can be saved with Veil against Noxious Grasp and Murderous Rider, but you know that. Both can be Negate'd, too. Now Negate is only a 1-for-1, but hitting a Murderous Rider or even Oko won't make you sad. The 4 cmc + counter is dead against that deck, though. Duress can be good just like Negate and Tamiyo could provide value.

What to cut? Paradise Druid and OuaT.. neither generates value, you spend a card for a bit of tempo/fixing. Also Paradise Druid turns on Massacre Girl which you want to avoid. Let him kill his own cat if he needs a massacre.

Remember, I'm only theorycrafting here..

I agree with this. I dont run an exact copy of a meta food deck but I find my food situation is normally better without OUaT and I've never seen the point in Paradise druid

That also brings up a good debate regarding Lovestruck Beast. I like it because it will trade with QBeast and comes down a turn earlier. But if the token is the only 1/1 I'm running then it will rarely attack. And the token turns on Massacre Girl who, without the opponent having 2 kittens, may not be able to reach x/3s.

k, let's get back to politics

Is there a way to down vote barney in this thread? He doesnt even play arena so I'm not sure what hes doing in an Arena Meta Game Discussion Thread


This is what your looking for Barney
viewtopic.php?f=62&t=20793&start=760