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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:02 pm 
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I just dont think that this pile wants Opt or Growth Spiral, that’s what the simic deck is trying to do... this is more a Draw Go deck.
I’m having quite decent results with it in BO3 ladder, I will try to reach mythic with it -Currently Plat 2-
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:11 pm 
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I just get too many 2 land hands. Then mull to worse. You have to hit 4 lands on curve for this deck to work IMO.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:40 pm 
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I just dont think that this pile wants Opt or Growth Spiral, that’s what the simic deck is trying to do... this is more a Draw Go deck.
I’m having quite decent results with it in BO3 ladder, I will try to reach mythic with it -Currently Plat 2-
.


Depends on whether you're running Search for Azcanta imo, if you're running Search then Opt/Growth Spiral fill your graveyard to flip it faster. Growth Spiral also helps you ramp in postboard games.

Also it might be just my rank (currently gold 4), but I'm meeting a lot of monored, making this deck not a good choice.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:47 pm 
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Banedon wrote:
I just dont think that this pile wants Opt or Growth Spiral, that’s what the simic deck is trying to do... this is more a Draw Go deck.
I’m having quite decent results with it in BO3 ladder, I will try to reach mythic with it -Currently Plat 2-
.


Depends on whether you're running Search for Azcanta imo, if you're running Search then Opt/Growth Spiral fill your graveyard to flip it faster. Growth Spiral also helps you ramp in postboard games.

Also it might be just my rank (currently gold 4), but I'm meeting a lot of monored, making this deck not a good choice.


Im Gold too. Actually I think I just slipped back to silver. I do fine against Mono R. It's the Simic Nexus, Esper, Mono Blue and even Grixis that I have trouble with. Running lower to the ground and being able to ramp is nice. Plus Opt and Spiral work great once Niv lands.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:44 pm 
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Pretty sure Temur with Wilderness isn't try to be a control deck. Works best as a semi-ramp, semi-tempo deck with a great late-game, either looping turns with Nexus or having a great turn with the Niv Miz pinging an opponent to death with lots of cheap spells.

And for god's sake, if you think about putting Electrodominance in a deck, don't; it is the worst card since Risk Factor. There are much better cards available in Standard with more upside throughout the game.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:25 am 
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I think you guys are trying to make the Simic deck in Temur colors... this is a different deck and IME works at its best as a control deck, you dont have Nexus as a payoff for your mana... this deck wants EXP//EXP as a way to go 7 for 1, Kill a threat and refill your hand. ALWAYS hold counters or at least represent them -with full control sometimes- cast another another EXP // EXP to the face... dig for Niv, Azcanta or more reclamations... and little by little get a huge board advantage while holding counters and burn to deal with threats.

This approach has given me the best results ATM, and man I have tested reclamation...

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:35 pm 
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Ps: agreed on Electrodominance being a bad card... I dunno how that is possible, it looks so good but testing proves otherwise, maybe in another deck... counter burn?
I was so hyped about it... and it has underperformed constantly...
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:26 pm 
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It will be good next expansion!


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:45 am 
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Some more thoughts about the deck:

- Growth Spiral seems overrated. It's a 4-of in all the deck lists I've seen, but although it's good early, it quickly becomes an expensive cycling instant later ... you might not even have another land to play on the same turn. I see you're not running any at all. Do you miss them?
- Shock might actually be better than Shivan Fire. It can kill planeswalkers (especially Teferi & Vivien) after they tick down. I don't think I've kicked Shivan Fire yet.
- I *really* want to run 3x Search for Azcanta. It's a proactive play for 2 mana, and Azcanta the Sunken Ruin + Wilderness Reclamation is absurd. I think four copies is closer to correct than two.
- I've not tried Ral. I see you say he's effective against resolved fatties, but there aren't that many fatties that he can kill which the other removal can't (Lyra I guess; there're few other 4+ toughness creatures). You can also kill resolved fatties with Explosion.
- Hard to imagine not running Opt. They're still cantrips that filter for the parts you need & help flip Search. I do board them out but only because I easily run out of things to cut.
- Sideboarding with the deck is hard. It's not easy to tell what cards to cut because they're all there for a reason. Often I find I'm just cutting the few bad cards for more creatures, and diversifying my creature suite. I see you're not running Rekindling Phoenix which I suspect is a mistake; that card demands special answers and is quite cheap too.
- I currently have some Pelakka Wurms in my sideboard for the monored matchup, but this could be completely wrong because they're 7 mana cards that'll be hard to reach without Growth Spiral. Maybe Fountain of Renewal?
- Hard to see Dire Fleet Daredevil as worth it. You don't need more value.

Some cards I definitely want in sideboard:

- At least two Negate for counterspell wars. Actually considering Spell Pierce too. Many of the ways other decks use to fight you are non-creature spells.
- One (more) Niv-Mizzet for counterspell matchups
- 2 Biogenic Ooze to diversify creature threats
- 2 Rekindling Phoenix for the same reason
- 4 Fiery Cannonade. Of course some are already mainboard; the remaining copies should be here.
- 3 Shivan Fire / Shock, depending on how many are in the mainboard.
- up to 3 Crushing Canopy - for Wilderness Reclamation, Cindervines, monoblue, anything with Thief of Sanity
- Something for the monored matchup
- Potentially Entrancing Melody for white aggro

It's definitely the case though that I run out of cards to board out sometimes, e.g. against white aggro, I want the cheap removal, cheap sweepers, Phoenix, and possibly Ooze. I can take out Niv-Mizzet and Sinister Sabotage, maybe a copy of Expansion//Explosion, but beyond that there're no more bad cards, which is why I'm often boarding out Opt.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:10 am 
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Growth Spiral is amazing and 2 mana for instant speed is not a terrible rate.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:49 am 
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divinevert wrote:
Growth Spiral is amazing and 2 mana for instant speed is not a terrible rate.


Sure Strike is also amazing and 2 mana for instant speed is not a terrible rate.

OT:

- Wow, Adanto Vanguard wipes this deck out. There's literally no answer except to block it with a bigger creature.
- Note to self, when using Expansion//Explosion to fight counter wars, use it first before Negate. Negate is simply more versatile. I lost a game to Simic Nexus because after using Negate first I wasn't able to counter their Crushing Canopy later.
- Fiery Cannonade just isn't very impressive. 2 damage at instant speed isn't a bad card, but WW decks have Adanto Vanguard + Dauntless Bodyguard, and 2 damage isn't enough to kill Benalish Marshal & Venerated Loxodon. However it's necessary because there aren't any more sweepers in red (RIP Hour of Devastation).
- I'm tempted to think that another color is better than red. White for example has better removal. However Expansion//Explosion is very powerful and so is Niv-Mizzet.
- There are no fun decks in Standard ...


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:43 am 
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Banedon wrote:
divinevert wrote:
Growth Spiral is amazing and 2 mana for instant speed is not a terrible rate.


Sure Strike is also amazing and 2 mana for instant speed is not a terrible rate.

OT:

- Wow, Adanto Vanguard wipes this deck out. There's literally no answer except to block it with a bigger creature.
- Note to self, when using Expansion//Explosion to fight counter wars, use it first before Negate. Negate is simply more versatile. I lost a game to Simic Nexus because after using Negate first I wasn't able to counter their Crushing Canopy later.
- Fiery Cannonade just isn't very impressive. 2 damage at instant speed isn't a bad card, but WW decks have Adanto Vanguard + Dauntless Bodyguard, and 2 damage isn't enough to kill Benalish Marshal & Venerated Loxodon. However it's necessary because there aren't any more sweepers in red (RIP Hour of Devastation).
- I'm tempted to think that another color is better than red. White for example has better removal. However Expansion//Explosion is very powerful and so is Niv-Mizzet.
- There are no fun decks in Standard ...


I think Lava Coil is necessary. Exile effect and 4 damage for 2 is just too important. I've never kicked Shiva either.

Stupid Cannonade doesn't kill a bunch of stinking pirates. Guess who runs those?? Mono B and anything Red. Don't know how many times I've clicked on the oops button. Wonder if splashing white for the 3 burn sweeper isn't better.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:28 am 
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Banedon wrote:
divinevert wrote:
Growth Spiral is amazing and 2 mana for instant speed is not a terrible rate.


Sure Strike is also amazing and 2 mana for instant speed is not a terrible rate.

OT:

- Wow, Adanto Vanguard wipes this deck out. There's literally no answer except to block it with a bigger creature.
- Note to self, when using Expansion//Explosion to fight counter wars, use it first before Negate. Negate is simply more versatile. I lost a game to Simic Nexus because after using Negate first I wasn't able to counter their Crushing Canopy later.
- Fiery Cannonade just isn't very impressive. 2 damage at instant speed isn't a bad card, but WW decks have Adanto Vanguard + Dauntless Bodyguard, and 2 damage isn't enough to kill Benalish Marshal & Venerated Loxodon. However it's necessary because there aren't any more sweepers in red (RIP Hour of Devastation).
- I'm tempted to think that another color is better than red. White for example has better removal. However Expansion//Explosion is very powerful and so is Niv-Mizzet.
- There are no fun decks in Standard ...


Why are you comparing a combat trick to ramp? These things are not equivalent.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:14 pm 
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divinevert wrote:
Banedon wrote:
divinevert wrote:
Growth Spiral is amazing and 2 mana for instant speed is not a terrible rate.


Sure Strike is also amazing and 2 mana for instant speed is not a terrible rate.

OT:

- Wow, Adanto Vanguard wipes this deck out. There's literally no answer except to block it with a bigger creature.
- Note to self, when using Expansion//Explosion to fight counter wars, use it first before Negate. Negate is simply more versatile. I lost a game to Simic Nexus because after using Negate first I wasn't able to counter their Crushing Canopy later.
- Fiery Cannonade just isn't very impressive. 2 damage at instant speed isn't a bad card, but WW decks have Adanto Vanguard + Dauntless Bodyguard, and 2 damage isn't enough to kill Benalish Marshal & Venerated Loxodon. However it's necessary because there aren't any more sweepers in red (RIP Hour of Devastation).
- I'm tempted to think that another color is better than red. White for example has better removal. However Expansion//Explosion is very powerful and so is Niv-Mizzet.
- There are no fun decks in Standard ...


Why are you comparing a combat trick to ramp? These things are not equivalent.


I'm not comparing anything to anything, I'm indicating that your statement about Growth Spiral is meaningless because it doesn't include anything other than "it's amazing" and that it's a 2-mana instant.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:24 pm 
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Banedon wrote:
divinevert wrote:
Banedon wrote:

Sure Strike is also amazing and 2 mana for instant speed is not a terrible rate.

OT:

- Wow, Adanto Vanguard wipes this deck out. There's literally no answer except to block it with a bigger creature.
- Note to self, when using Expansion//Explosion to fight counter wars, use it first before Negate. Negate is simply more versatile. I lost a game to Simic Nexus because after using Negate first I wasn't able to counter their Crushing Canopy later.
- Fiery Cannonade just isn't very impressive. 2 damage at instant speed isn't a bad card, but WW decks have Adanto Vanguard + Dauntless Bodyguard, and 2 damage isn't enough to kill Benalish Marshal & Venerated Loxodon. However it's necessary because there aren't any more sweepers in red (RIP Hour of Devastation).
- I'm tempted to think that another color is better than red. White for example has better removal. However Expansion//Explosion is very powerful and so is Niv-Mizzet.
- There are no fun decks in Standard ...


Why are you comparing a combat trick to ramp? These things are not equivalent.


I'm not comparing anything to anything, I'm indicating that your statement about Growth Spiral is meaningless because it doesn't include anything other than "it's amazing" and that it's a 2-mana instant.


Okay, I guess I needed you to take the next logical step for me.

It's amazing because it is a 2 mana instant ramp spell that, at worst, it is a 2 mana cantrip.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:30 pm 
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Banedon wrote:
Some more thoughts about the deck:

- Growth Spiral seems overrated. It's a 4-of in all the deck lists I've seen, but although it's good early, it quickly becomes an expensive cycling instant later ... you might not even have another land to play on the same turn. I see you're not running any at all. Do you miss them?
- Shock might actually be better than Shivan Fire. It can kill planeswalkers (especially Teferi & Vivien) after they tick down. I don't think I've kicked Shivan Fire yet.
- I *really* want to run 3x Search for Azcanta. It's a proactive play for 2 mana, and Azcanta the Sunken Ruin + Wilderness Reclamation is absurd. I think four copies is closer to correct than two.
- I've not tried Ral. I see you say he's effective against resolved fatties, but there aren't that many fatties that he can kill which the other removal can't (Lyra I guess; there're few other 4+ toughness creatures). You can also kill resolved fatties with Explosion.
- Hard to imagine not running Opt. They're still cantrips that filter for the parts you need & help flip Search. I do board them out but only because I easily run out of things to cut.
- Sideboarding with the deck is hard. It's not easy to tell what cards to cut because they're all there for a reason. Often I find I'm just cutting the few bad cards for more creatures, and diversifying my creature suite. I see you're not running Rekindling Phoenix which I suspect is a mistake; that card demands special answers and is quite cheap too.
- I currently have some Pelakka Wurms in my sideboard for the monored matchup, but this could be completely wrong because they're 7 mana cards that'll be hard to reach without Growth Spiral. Maybe Fountain of Renewal?
- Hard to see Dire Fleet Daredevil as worth it. You don't need more value.

Some cards I definitely want in sideboard:

- At least two Negate for counterspell wars. Actually considering Spell Pierce too. Many of the ways other decks use to fight you are non-creature spells.
- One (more) Niv-Mizzet for counterspell matchups
- 2 Biogenic Ooze to diversify creature threats
- 2 Rekindling Phoenix for the same reason
- 4 Fiery Cannonade. Of course some are already mainboard; the remaining copies should be here.
- 3 Shivan Fire / Shock, depending on how many are in the mainboard.
- up to 3 Crushing Canopy - for Wilderness Reclamation, Cindervines, monoblue, anything with Thief of Sanity
- Something for the monored matchup
- Potentially Entrancing Melody for white aggro

It's definitely the case though that I run out of cards to board out sometimes, e.g. against white aggro, I want the cheap removal, cheap sweepers, Phoenix, and possibly Ooze. I can take out Niv-Mizzet and Sinister Sabotage, maybe a copy of Expansion//Explosion, but beyond that there're no more bad cards, which is why I'm often boarding out Opt.


1. On the Growth Spirals, I think they are very good but I don´t think they are very good in this deck... I rather have 1 Lavacoil in hand than 1 Growth Spiral.
2. The deck initially had shocks, for the exact reason you say... I can see my self returning to shocks over Shivan Fire but then again you might want to go for Lighting strikes so then you have 2-3-4 damage burn spells, I will test the Strikes but I see your point and kinda agree.
3. On the Azcanta, I think you are probably right... I most times boarded out against aggro, but I have one more copy on the SB I think 3 copies might be the right number against control but on the main deck 2 seems enough IMO... this could be tested.
4. Ral is a soft spot... I love that guy but he might get the axe in the long run, most big threats are dealt with EXP/EXP but I really like resolving one and defending him with counters... by the time Niv arrives all the removal is used.
5. Opt I have not test it... I cant find room for it, what will you swap?
6. Phoenix is interesting for sure... I run 2 Ooze on the SB to make use of the floating mana... one activation on end step and you have 9 P/T on the field on 3 bodies that is huge and can end the game on the spot... this is very fun to run against the Nexus decks that remove their Root Snares.
Have you tested the Phoenix?
7. Pelakka seems like an odd choice... you cant really make use of the Reclamation mana don´t think is a good idea.
8. Dare Devil is a house against control... Esper and Dimir eats a bit of their own medicine.. like when they cast Ego.. and you then cast that on them or kill their Teferi with their mortifyContempt, Thought Erasure... I love it and would not change it at all.

Against WW I take out Sabotage and Azcanta, I never touch EXP, Niv, Reclamation and always leave at least 2 Syncopate, if you know what your opponent will be running then you can go BURN control, rather than counter magic on the draw Syncopate is gold.

PS: You only truly know a creature is a pirate after they survive your cannonade :P

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:41 pm 
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divinevert wrote:
It's amazing because it is a 2 mana instant ramp spell that, at worst, it is a 2 mana cantrip.


Did you read what I wrote? Growth Spiral can fail to ramp you if you have no lands to play.

@Cucho - I get the feeling that Temur is becoming a control deck with a combo finish ... and a not very stable control deck to boot. I for example just got run over by a Sultai opponent who went Branchwalker into 2x Jadelight Ranger, because I had no way to kill them. I need to draw Lightning Strikes for his Jadelights and Shocks for his Branchwalkers, and if I don't, there's no way to catch up except with Phoenix, but that just gets hit by Vraska's Contempt / Hostage Taker and I lose. Even if the clock isn't so fast I'm rapidly overwhelmed on the board and have to hope to stick a win condition like Niv-Mizzet + opponent doesn't have removal and / or I have both Wilderness Reclamation + a counterspell in hand. It's a terrible place to be. I'm losing interest in the deck as a result. Reclamation is insane if you reach the late-game, but the deck badly needs a good sweeper and it doesn't have one.

About individual points:

- I don't see how Ral attracts removal. It's just Vraska's Contempt and various burn spells. If you get to untap with him and defend him with counters you're probably winning, but if that happens Niv-Mizzet is even better than Ral.
- I basically tweaked Face-to-Face's Temur deck from the Mythic Championship. That lets me run Opt (and Growth Spiral if I want it) but no Syncopates and no Lava Coils.
- Phoenix is great. It's relatively cheap to cast and it's hard for many decks to kill. Agree Ooze is also good, especially against decks that attack on the ground; however it badly needs Reclamation to hit its full potential. Without it you're probably trading away the token the turn you cast Ooze (even if they don't have removal), and then you're in danger of getting overrun again since you need to sink more mana to make more oozes.
- I haven't tried Pelakka Wurm. 7 mana is a definite problem yeah. However the deck needs lifegain to beat monored. If not Pelakka Wurm it must be Fountain of Renewal, I don't see any other good option (Growth of Paradise barely counts).
- I can see Dare Devil being great against control, but I find that to already be a good matchup. You already have the biggest of big sticks in Niv-Mizzet, not to mention three maindeck counters + 2 sideboard Negate, plus if they ever fail to counter a Wilderness Reclamation you're hugely advantaged.
- Problem with burn control is that sometimes you just can't kill their creatures. Adanto Vanguard + Dauntless Bodyguard is an example, Rekindling Phoenix is another, Venerated Loxodon forces you to have Lava Coil. Besides, you're just 1-for-1'ing them. The standard control gameplan is to 1-for-1 opponent and then pull ahead with CA spells while opponent inevitably floods out, but they have much more removal than this deck does, and they also have sweepers if they need it. It's hard to see this plan as effective.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:53 am 
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Growth is a low risk high reward spell. Great when it ramps you; not a dead card if it doesn't. I wouldn't call a 2 mana cycler "expensive". Especially in a deck built around a card that untaps your mana on end step. Maybe not essential, but not bad either.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:44 am 
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I put Growth Spiral back in and after trying it in retrospect I think it's OK. It's your best turn 2 play (even better than Search for Azcanta) and later in the game with 26 lands hopefully you're able to cycle it freely. There will be games which you lose because of the 2 mana that must be invested, however.

Also I think this deck is just not very good, or at least it crumbles way too easily against aggressive decks. They don't even have to be aggressive decks; even midrange decks can overrun this one. For example:

- vs. Sultai Explore, if they play T2 Branchwalker T3 Jadelight Ranger, you could quickly be under a 7 damage/turn gun. You need to draw your removal, but your removal also needs to line up correctly (Shock may fail to kill Jadelight for example). Otherwise you need to draw Wilderness Reclamation, but if they're threatening to play Vivien, this might not work. Or you can play a big blocker, but by turn 6 you could really be close to dying, and if they have just one removal spell, you lose. If they don't have pressure then yeah you can win, but otherwise it's often just playing Wilderness Reclamation and praying they don't have it (or you have drawn Sinister Sabotage, but countering their Vivien still means you are taking 7 damage).
- vs. Simic Nexus, you need to draw Niv-Mizzet or they'll end step Nexus you and you're busted. It's unlikely you have more than 3 copies mainboard + sideboard combined, which puts the odds against you (they can also Blink of an Eye / Crushing Canopy Niv-Mizzet at instant speed and you lose).
- vs. White aggro it's similar to Sultai Explore, except they can much more reliably establish a clock. Sweepers aren't that effective because of Vanguard and Dauntless Bodyguard, and Shock can be pretty bad too against Vanguard & Benalish Marshal. I find it again comes down to playing Wilderness Reclamation and hoping they don't have Conclave Tribunal (or you have drawn Sinister Sabotage). And then after that, you're praying to survive to six mana and dropping Niv-Mizzet because otherwise there's no way to stabilize. It doesn't help that although Entrancing Melody "answers" Vanguard, it's also likely tapped by the time you're casting it, and you can't block with a tapped creature.
- vs. Gruul aggro it's again similar to Sultai Explore, except this time they have Cindervines, which means you have to board in Crushing Canopy. But what if they don't draw Cindervines? Also Shock is actively bad against many of their creatures (which have 3+ toughness), kicked Shivan Fire costs too much, and again you're pressured into drawing the right answers for their threats.
- vs. Monoblue it's always going to hard since they have maindeck counterspells, and although their deck can fizzle, if they ever get ahead you're not winning except with Niv-Mizzet (and even then you have to fade Deep Freeze, Tempest Djinn with 5+ Islands, and Merfolk Trickster enabling an attack).
- vs. Drakes / Phoenix, you have no way to kill their X/4's. That makes Crackling Drake into a 3-for-1 at least (you need Shock + Expansion, and they draw a card on ETB). They can fizzle, yes, but if one of those drakes live it's easy to die.

I find playing this deck is very often just crossing my fingers and hoping they don't have it. Sometimes they'll inevitably not have it, but if they do you just die. The aggressive decks are especially problematic because they only need one piece of interaction at a crucial time, and you lose.

I'm beginning to think Simic Nexus is the better of the Reclamation decks. It's conceivable Temur might have better win rates overall, though, because after all sometimes they won't have it. Casting Niv-Mizzet with Wilderness Reclamation in play is one of the most powerful things you can do in Standard, too.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:57 am 
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I think you are being a bit hyperbolic about the weakness of the deck, Lava coil effectively can turn down drakes for instance, Sultai is a deck that is problematic but not at all a nightmare, games take time and you can effectively change strategies after SB, for instance Essence scatter more Lava Coils and more shocks /shivan/lighting can turn off decks that are not playing more than one threat per turn.

Worse matchups are RDW and WW, the rest are all very much winnable, besides Esper and Dimir are praying on those decks and keeping then in check, and this deck eats Esper and Dimir.

I'm now stucked at Diamond with the deck and find it a lot harder to climb, I would say that the only deck that can feel out of reach is a t2 Adanto Vanguard on the play other than that you can syncopate and work your way.

About Simic I think that deck is also very good but suffers the same problems that this one it can get run over by hyper aggressive decks.

If you are seeing a lot of RDW and Ww then this is not the deck for that meta if you are seeing a lot of control and midrange then this deck is very good.

PS: Spiral is the proverbial dead card in those bad matchups ;)
PS2: This is my data on the deck
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