It is currently Sun Dec 01, 2024 12:49 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: On Dominaria...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:03 am 
Offline
Member

Joined: Dec 12, 2014
Posts: 56
Identity: Male
It looks like they cut the Upkeep phase and did that thing they wanted to do to Regeneration.

A series of scaling design conceits that aren't evincing much of note.

Kids these days...

_________________
...and after I drew all my lands, I sacrificed them to Zorb and cast Balance.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On Dominaria...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:42 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 2979
What are you talking about? They didn’t cut upkeep, the set has Darigaaz and Verdant Force that specifically work during upkeep. Are you overreacting to the fact that sagas trigger at end of draw?

They’re printing one creature that has ‘pay to tap and make Indestructible until end of turn’. One. They haven’t done anything to the text of existing regeneration cards. In fact they’re reprinting Ezuri in the new legendary card frame working exactly as he always did.

Mountains out of molehills much?


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On Dominaria...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:14 am 
Offline
Member

Joined: Dec 12, 2014
Posts: 56
Identity: Male
What are you talking about? They didn’t cut upkeep, the set has Darigaaz and Verdant Force that specifically work during upkeep. Are you overreacting to the fact that sagas trigger at end of draw?

They’re printing one creature that has ‘pay to tap and make Indestructible until end of turn’. One. They haven’t done anything to the text of existing regeneration cards. In fact they’re reprinting Ezuri in the new legendary card frame working exactly as he always did.

Mountains out of molehills much?

Aside from your blatant pot and kettle situation, It's clearly something they are testing the waters of at the described rate, there, thatmarkguy.

This fella's amusing because of the blatant hypocracy endemic to its shrieky tone.

Also, they printed an even better Leatherback Baloth sorta deal. Ugh.

_________________
...and after I drew all my lands, I sacrificed them to Zorb and cast Balance.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On Dominaria...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:29 pm 
Offline
YMtC Champ '11
YMtC Pro Tour Champion
YMtC Idol Winner
User avatar

Joined: Sep 23, 2013
Posts: 10665
Preferred Pronoun Set: he/him/my/mine/himself
The skeleton is probably more of a throwback than anything else.
Sagas work that way because they work better that way, I severely doubt upkeeps are going anywhere. It makes the effect more consistent in that it always happens at sorcery speed, and it also means mana generated won't vanish into the upkeep.
Not that I would mind moving upkeep triggers to post-draw, but I doubt there is a clean way to template those, and given how entrenched upkeeps are in the game and the ramifications of just removing priority before the draw step, I don't see it happening.

_________________
[Warchief] Custom EDH Project
you're like the kind of person who would cast Necropotence irl


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On Dominaria...
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:33 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: May 29, 2017
Posts: 500
Preferred Pronoun Set: he
It might be that the upkeep becomes an unmentionable phase, just as the stack is an unmentionable zone.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On Dominaria...
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:59 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 2979
They didn’t have to reprint Verdant Force. They could have printed something new, they could have reprinted something different. If there was even an inkling that they’re thinking of making upkeep unmentionable, the first and easiest thing they could possibly have done is choose not to reprint a creature that explicitly mentions upkeep.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On Dominaria...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:00 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 12, 2015
Posts: 691
Mown wrote:
The skeleton is probably more of a throwback than anything else.
Sagas work that way because they work better that way, I severely doubt upkeeps are going anywhere. It makes the effect more consistent in that it always happens at sorcery speed, and it also means mana generated won't vanish into the upkeep.
This, definitely. I also think I remember seeing Aaron Forsythe (Or Eli Shiffrin?) mention that they wanted people to get to see their card for the turn because that might affect their decisions for the Saga.

_________________


"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins."

"Remember, dear friends: when we announce something and you imagine it, the odds that we made exactly that thing are zero."---Kelly Digges


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On Dominaria...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:58 pm 
Offline
YMtC Pro Tour Champion
User avatar

Joined: Jan 05, 2016
Posts: 1644
Location: noe valley
Preferred Pronoun Set: he/they
It's an unambiguously good thing that they cut regeneration from being an evergreen mechanic

_________________
I am the sun-filled
god of love. Or at least an optimistic
under-secretary.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On Dominaria...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:49 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 23, 2013
Posts: 3673
Identity: Goblin Piker
They have been talking about getting rid of regeneration for a while, and replacing it with "Indestructible EOT"

They already started doing it on green spells in like, Theros I think. When was the last time they printed a new card with regeneration?

You really are blowing things out of scale.

_________________
Twitter: (at)MrEnglish22 if you want to reach me
My cube: https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/mrenglish22


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On Dominaria...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:26 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 12283
I'll not argue that regeneration wasn't an intuitive mechanic, but I feel indestructible is a terrible replacement for the theme of what it represented.

_________________
At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On Dominaria...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:43 pm 
Offline
Conqueror of Eldangard
User avatar

Joined: Sep 25, 2013
Posts: 14140
Location: Kamloops, BC
Identity: Male
Maybe a protection form damage until eot ability?

_________________
Cato wrote:
CotW is a method for ranking cards in increasing order of printability.

*"To YMTC it up" means to design cards that have value mostly from a design perspective. i.e. you would put them in a case under glass in your living room and visitors could remark upon the wonderful design principles, with nobody ever worring if the cards are annoying/pointless/confusing in actual play

TPrizesW
TPortfolioW


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On Dominaria...
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:04 pm 
Offline
YMtC Champ '08

Joined: Dec 24, 2013
Posts: 1540
Regeneration was even worse than indestructible thematically, "Regenerate target creature" reads like "Target creature reassembles/regrows/restores itself" which is not at all how the mechanic works.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On Dominaria...
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:05 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: May 09, 2014
Posts: 4575
arathinius wrote:
It might be that the upkeep becomes an unmentionable phase, just as the stack is an unmentionable zone.


considering the quantity of cards which trigger at the upkeep, that would be highly unusual

_________________
"That winter, the fireplace was never without a crackling blaze in its belly. The boiled wine we drank was undoubtedly middling and cheap, but she said, with a smile, "I've never had wine this good before." And though I didn't say anything, I felt the same way."


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On Dominaria...
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:37 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Dec 12, 2014
Posts: 56
Identity: Male
As for Regeneration and people struggling to grapple that Drudge Skeletons doesn't act like Reassembling Skeleton, it was a good litmus test after awhile BITD. A formal upkeep step will probably eventually be a thing like Mana Burn or eventually, maximum hand size.

A card representing soldiers is a 1/1, a War Mammoth is a 3/3, Lord of the Pit is 7/7 and eats your dudes, and any metrics to the contrary don't bear the mettle of product worth commingling with anything of worth. :D

_________________
...and after I drew all my lands, I sacrificed them to Zorb and cast Balance.


Last edited by GobO_Lazarus on Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
removing bait


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On Dominaria...
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:53 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 23, 2013
Posts: 8248
Identity: Spambot
Preferred Pronoun Set: 0, 1
Can you explain how regeneration is better than indestructible until end of turn? Indestructible until end of turn is more intuitive, has a lot less rules baggage, and functions almost identically in almost every case.

To put it another way: supposing that indestructible until end of turn had been the mechanic from the beginning. Would you then try to convince Mark Rosewater to change it to regeneration? What would you tell him? What advantages does it have?

_________________
Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On Dominaria...
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:11 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 30, 2013
Posts: 16394
Location: Secret Lair
Regeneration means "the next time this permanent would be destroyed this turn, it isn't. Instead tap it, remove all damage from it, and remove it from combat."

The mechanic only saves a card from being destroyed once. So you can still get around it with something like two copies of Murder. It's a weaker form of Indestructible the same way Shroud is a weaker form of Hexproof.

"Indestructible until the end of turn" means the card can't die from damage until the end of the turn.

Mechanically speaking, there are cards like Charging Troll that have effects that are essentially ":g:: Regenerate." There is a design niche that it fills that "indestructible until the end of turn" doesn't.

Also mechanically speaking, "Starting with Kaladesh, regeneration was finally retired. Instead, the phrase “gain indestructible until end of turn” came into being for new, but similar cards." because " Aaron Forsythe has stated that, "The word 'regenerate' has been tossed onto cards for years as if it was one of the most simple concepts in the game, along the lines of 'attack' and 'graveyard.' The truth is that the mechanic is so complicated and wonky that we would never greenlight it today, but it has been grandfathered into the fabric of the game, and it does fill a nice niche." "


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On Dominaria...
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:42 pm 
Offline
Conqueror of Eldangard
User avatar

Joined: Sep 25, 2013
Posts: 14140
Location: Kamloops, BC
Identity: Male
I feel regenerate was a terrible design mistake. They put a whole lot more man hours of brainpower into each set nowadays. I really don't think that Garfield and co would have regeneration become part of the game if they had a modern level of resources and understanding of how people would play the game once it hit market. It's a sloppy piece of game design from when they couldn't even get an editor to clean up the rules text.
To emulate regeneration more accurately, we could just have a mechanic that negate all damage or a single "destroy" ability as a one shot effect.

_________________
Cato wrote:
CotW is a method for ranking cards in increasing order of printability.

*"To YMTC it up" means to design cards that have value mostly from a design perspective. i.e. you would put them in a case under glass in your living room and visitors could remark upon the wonderful design principles, with nobody ever worring if the cards are annoying/pointless/confusing in actual play

TPrizesW
TPortfolioW


Last edited by GobO_Lazarus on Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
continuity


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On Dominaria...
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:35 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 458
Location: Lambholt, Kessig
Identity: Male
The only thing about Regenerate I like is the name/flavor. The actual mechanic is too messy.

_________________
"Not all those who wander are lost"
- J.R.R. Tolkien

"The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it which the merely improbable lacks"
- Douglas Adams


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On Dominaria...
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:50 am 
Offline
Moderator Lead
User avatar

Joined: Jun 05, 2015
Posts: 1017
Identity: Male
Hey folks,

I cleaned up this thread a bit. In the future, if something looks like bait, it's probably best to not respond at all, to avoid further derailing.

Thanks,
Lazarus

_________________
I ask for so little. Just let me rule you, and you can have everything that you want. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On Dominaria...
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:15 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 12283
The only thing about Regenerate I like is the name/flavor. The actual mechanic is too messy.

That's pretty much where I sit on the matter too.
That said, I'm really not fond of the idea of indestructibility replacing it because it has its own flavor identity, even if mechanically it amounts to the same thing.

_________________
At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group