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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:06 am 
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I've got a question!

It came up in the PbP game (as I totally messed up), but, I think I can liken it to a paper issue.
Lets say you are drawing a card, and, they stick, so, you not only see the card you are drawing, but the next one in your library as well.
What should be done? Would you leave it on top, and just draw it next turn, or, would you re-shuffle?

In this situation, it was player 1's turn. I accidentally sent player 2 a card when I shouldn't have. It was my initial thought to let him keep it, but not be able to do anything with it until his next turn starts, at which time, he would not draw a card (since it was already in his hand), and we would be back where we started. However, I can see the argument for a reshuffle.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:51 am 
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If this is a friendly game, there is no actual method to deal with it besides what you come up with. My initial gut instinct would say "shuffle up all the cards you weren't allowed to see".

If this is a tournament though, here's what the Infraction Procedure Guide has to say:

EDIT: Summary: Call a judge. The judge will issue a warning, then find out from the players if any cards were supposed to be known (due to scry or whatnot). Then they'll reshuffle all the cards whose positions are not known.

Quote:
2.2. Game Play Error — Looking at Extra Cards
Definition
A player looks at a card they were not entitled to see. Players are considered to have looked at a card when they have been able to observe the face of a hidden card, or when a card is moved any significant amount from a deck, but before it touches the other cards in their hand. This includes errors of dexterity or catching a play error before the card is placed into his or her hand. Once a card has been placed into his or her hand or if a player takes a game action after removing the card from the library, the offense is no longer Looking at Extra Cards.

A player is not considered to have looked at extra cards when he or she places a card face down on the table (without looking at the card) in an effort to count out cards he or she will draw.

This penalty is applied only once if one or more cards are seen in the same action or sequence of actions.

Examples
A. A player accidentally reveals (drops, flips over) a card while shuffling her opponent’s deck.
B. A player flips over an extra card while drawing from his deck.
C. A player sees the bottom card of her deck when presenting it to her opponent for cutting/shuffling.
D. A player activates a Sensei’s Divining Top that is no longer on the battlefield, and sees 3 cards before the
mistake is noticed.

Remedy
Penalty: Warning

Additional Remedy
Shuffle the randomized portion of the deck (which may include the cards that were seen, if they were part of the random portion of the library). This requires first determining whether any portion of the deck is non-random, such as cards that have been manipulated on the top or bottom of the library, and separating those. Once the deck has been shuffled, any manipulated cards are returned to their correct locations.

Care must be taken before shuffling to make sure that there are no “legally known” cards in the library. Check with both players to verify this, and check the graveyard, exile, and battlefield for deck manipulation cards, such as Brainstorm and cards with the scry mechanic.

Philosophy
A player can accidentally look at extra cards easily. Drawing extra cards is a separate, more severe Game Play Error.

Players should not be using this penalty to get a “free shuffle” or to attempt to shuffle away cards they don’t want to draw; doing so may be Unsporting Conduct — Cheating. Players also are not allowed to use this penalty as a stalling mechanism. The deck is already randomized, so shuffling in the revealed cards should not involve excessive effort.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:09 am 
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Awesome, thanks Yarium!
Since it was my fault, and, I guess I'm the judge, I'm giving myself an official warning!

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:33 pm 
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Why doesn't Soul Conduit allow me to exchange two opponents' life totals if I have Erebos, God of the Dead in play? I would think it would function somewhat like a replacement effect and simply cause the higher player to lose life until he's equal with the lower player, but apparently neither player's life total will change? Whassup wit dat?

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:55 pm 
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There are some gatherer rulings about this:

Quote:
When the life totals are exchanged, each player gains or loses the amount of life necessary to equal the other player's previous life total. For example, if Player A has 5 life and Player B has 3 life before the exchange, Player A will lose 2 life and Player B will gain 2 life. Replacement effects may modify these gains and losses, and triggered abilities may trigger on them.

Quote:
If a player can't gain life, that player can't exchange life totals with a player with a higher life total. If a player can't lose life, that player can't exchange life totals with a player with a lower life total. In either of these cases, neither player's life total will change.


As to why it works this way, I can't tell you anything other than "because wotc says so".

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:11 pm 
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Right, I know how it works, it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever as I understand the rules. But I've only recently returned, so I'm a little rusty. I mean, I can still pay a ton of life to Erebos' ability then pull the ol' switcheroo, but I was hoping to capitalize on it as a political card, as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:26 pm 
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Life totals don't just become "X". If ever something says "players life becomes Y", it gets there by gaining or lowering life. That being said, this would imply that at the very least, one would still be able to lose life via Soul Conduit, but that is not the case. You cannot cheat Switcheroos. If something says "exchange", the exchange must be feasible at time of resolution or the spell/effect is countered.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:52 am 
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Jelly has it right. Setting a life total to a particular value works by having the player gain or lose the appropriate amount of life. This means that Erebos's ability effectively reads "It is impossible for your opponents' life totals to go up."

Since it's impossible for your opponent's life total to go up, the part of the exchange where their life total would go up is also impossible, and if part of an exchange is impossible, all of it's impossible, so nothing happens.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:01 am 
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We both know how it works, just the idea is that instead of making it life gain and loss, why couldn't you just switch it and not have it register as gain or loss.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:50 am 
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Shadowchu wrote:
We both know how it works, just the idea is that instead of making it life gain and loss, why couldn't you just switch it and not have it register as gain or loss.
Because good luck setting your life total to 43 from 9 and then convincing the new player sitting across from you that you didn't actually gain any life so their Kavu Predator doesn't get any bigger without them thinking you're a massive cheat.

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And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:26 am 
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Jelly has it right. Setting a life total to a particular value works by having the player gain or lose the appropriate amount of life. This means that Erebos's ability effectively reads "It is impossible for your opponents' life totals to go up."

Since it's impossible for your opponent's life total to go up, the part of the exchange where their life total would go up is also impossible, and if part of an exchange is impossible, all of it's impossible, so nothing happens.

Yeah, once I sat down and thought about it, if you consider each life total a 'target' and think of Soul Conduit as requiring two legal 'targets' to perform the switch it makes sense. Sort of. Kinda? I'd already known that changes in life total cause loss (or gain) of life (including damage [unless that changed]) which is exactly why I thought it would work as I wanted it to.

Oh well, the deck is running a lot of sacrifice engines anyway and produces stupid amounts of mana so it's not a huge deal to just get rid of Erebos temporarily while I play anti-kingmaker.

EDIT: Why couldn't they just print it as a replacement effect. ;_;

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:27 pm 
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Keep in mind that if you want to exchange your life total of 2 for your opponent's life total of 20, you can still do that.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:43 pm 
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This came up at FNM yesterday; I'm reasonably sure the judge got it wrong, but it wasn't my game and I didn't want to jump in and interfere.

Player 1 plays a Deathrite Shaman and wants to play a second one immediately afterward.
Player 2 wants to Lightning Bolt the first Shaman, then Surgical Extraction it before Player 1 can cast the second.

Who gets what they want?

The judge ruled that Player 2 wins, saying that 2 gets priority after the first Shaman enters the battlefield. This seems wrong to me.

As I understand priority, this is how it goes:
  1. Player 1 casts Shaman #1 and passes priority.
  2. Player 2 passes priority.
  3. Shaman resolves and enters the battlefield.
  4. Player 1 gains priority and casts Shaman #2.
  5. Player 2 gains priority. This is the first point at which he can target Shaman #1 with Lightning Bolt, and is too late for Surgical Extraction to affect Shaman #2.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:46 pm 
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You are correct. That is a very bad judge.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:37 am 
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I wouldn't go that far, but they did get this call incorrect. I'd suggest politely talking with them about it the next time you see them--you can point them to 116.3b, the relevant rule.

Though it's probably worth noting that if player A was attempting to use another Deathrite Shaman to cast the next spell, or was cracking a fetchland to get the land to cast it, that would make the judge's answer correct, because players can respond to either the fetchland ability or Deathrite's ability, as neither are mana abilities--they use the stack and can be responded to.

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Knowledge knows no bounds.

And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:04 am 
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Same reason you can't shock a planeswalker after they resolve but before they use one of their abilities.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:03 am 
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Before you go about calling someone a bad judge, especially at Regular REL, I'd suggest that you take into acount that frequently a judge at a small event like an FNM or Prerelease is the only judge there while still playing in the event. He then hears a judge call or even two simultaneous judge calls, interrupts his game and has to fix problems as quickly as possible under the risk of delaying not one but two matches (or in the case of simultaneous calls, even more). Add on top of it that players are frequently unable to present their problem in a clear fashion. Just a few weeks ago at an FNM I was called from a tense game about five minutes before time to answer some convoluted question about Thassa and Evolve and it took me a good minute and a half to finally be told that nothing's actually entering the battlefield. It's really easy to make a mistake when you're acting under that kind of pressure.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:26 pm 
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Thanks, everybody. Good to have solid confirmation.

Usually the judging is pretty good at this shop -- the guy who runs most events knows his stuff, and the local L2 plays in almost everything. But now and then they have someone else as head judge and it's not uncommon to see mistakes when that happens.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:27 pm 
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Can an evoke cost be reduced with Heartless Summoning? Is evoke an alternate casting cost?

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:55 pm 
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Malpheas wrote:
Can an evoke cost be reduced with Heartless Summoning? Is evoke an alternate casting cost?

Yes and yes.

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