It's time to go big, the theme of this week is Ramp, an archetype that had its glorious days in BFZ season, mostly because of limited cardpool for the other archetypes and in particular because of Moss. I believe that it could be tier 1.5-2 now, but we'll see. Here's the rules: viewtopic.php?p=570239#p570239 Anyone can join this poll, by building all these decks and testing them. Then you can vote up to 2 decklists, the one with the best record and if you want the one with the second best record or a decklist that you enjoyed particularly. It will be nice if you can also post the record for any decklist and leave feedbacks for the decks you enjoyed. Only the best decklist will win, but having feedbacks for all the decklists is appreciated and also a reward for people who joined this contest. Let's see the options:
7 decklists submitted, included mine since it's quite different than the other simic lists and 7 lists should not be too many to test. I'm really happy that we have all the combinations represented. The poll will be open for 12 days, it should be enough time to test them all without pressure. Here's the list of the deckbuilders: CardboardNomad, Cucho Lambreta, elk, Giocher, Haven_pt, Modulo, Zen. As always have fun testing these lists, don't forget to shame deckbuilders too and let's see which deckbuilder can go bigger
Lots of Simic here. Doesn't surprise me at all; wanted to go Simic as well but ended up missing the turn 2 Ruin In Their Wake too dearly.
Indeed, there are not very many similarities in the lists it seems. Ofc they all run Forests and all but one (Zen) run Nissa, Vastwood Seer - other than that no card seems to be featured in more than 5 lists.
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Joined: Jul 08, 2016 Posts: 762 Location: Central U.S.
Good builds. I couldn't make a two color ramp list that passes my own quality screen so I didn't submit. A few things in my mind -
1. Sandwurm convergence is very good payoff in green itself. 1v1 game don't have much enchantment hate. It's auto-win against most aggro and meta is aggro.
2. A heavy ramp deck simply cannot beat counter spells. The solutions can be one or more of card engine counter protection of our own - dispel reduce ramp and add threats (more midrange threats) A few things that does well in more than one category - tracker, rogue refiner,, flip nissa, bounty
3. To survive aggro, we need a combination of sweeper and spot removal. Clearly red or black. End game would be 2 Sandwurm and 1 Cruel Reality. The benefits for red are those fireballs, but I don't think they can be reliable finishers. Because they basically exchange card for damages, and card is too scarce a resource in RG ramp. They are inefficient removals too that usually can't help with stabilizing.
So my ideal ramp would be a combination of blue draw + black sweeper + early removals, with lower curve that tops with 2 sandwurm, 1 cruel, 1 ulamog. Definitely no nissa's renewal, No fireballs, No other big payoffs. Add some midrange creatures in rogue refiner, tracker, dorks. (not a fan of 3cc dork. too expensive / slow and thus too plainful if removed. )
With two colors, blue mass bounce could probably impersonate sweepers but still nothing replaces 1 mana 2 mana instant removals. Many games will lose right away if not getting blue expertise or crush. I think some sort of combination of Giocher + Zen is as close as I could get with two colors restriction. Adding Haven's 3rd color could get to the optimized ramp deck for my taste.
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Elk gets my vote even though I'd swap out the Recruiters and bring in a bit more card draw (probably Tamiyo's Journal for synergy with Trackers + tutor for Ulamog, or Rishkar's Expertise or something cheaper like Elemental Bond or Mouth // Feed) and also green-hulk.
He's ticked most of my personal boxes for ramp: Advocates, Dorks, Trackers, Hydra+Passage, Ulamog. I normally like to run Nissa's Renewal to bridge the gap from 6 to 10 when running Ulamog, but with all the Weavers and Druids its pretty easy to get there. As mentioned above I'd just like to see a tutor to fish Ulamog out.
The other Simics are running a lot of bounce which I'm not a fan of personally. I can't speak to how effective it is or not.. I just don't like 'temporary removal' when it could be permanent (or something else entirely). The Selesnya one is a bit unfocused with a lot of 1-of cards, and quite a few board wipes that don't necessarily jive with a creature based deck.
I like Modulo's deck but might make some different choices on the >4cmc creatures - just not sure what exactly yet.
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"Minions, servants, soldiers of the cold dark! Obey the call... of Kel'Thuzad!"
Good builds. I couldn't make a two color ramp list that passes my own quality screen so I didn't submit. A few things in my mind -
1. Sandwurm convergence is very good payoff in green itself. 1v1 game don't have much enchantment hate. It's auto-win against most aggro and meta is aggro.
2. A heavy ramp deck simply cannot beat counter spells. The solutions can be one or more of card engine counter protection of our own - dispel reduce ramp and add threats (more midrange threats) A few things that does well in more than one category - tracker, rogue refiner,, flip nissa, bounty
3. To survive aggro, we need a combination of sweeper and spot removal. Clearly red or black. End game would be 2 Sandwurm and 1 Cruel Reality. The benefits for red are those fireballs, but I don't think they can be reliable finishers. Because they basically exchange card for damages, and card is too scarce a resource in RG ramp. They are inefficient removals too that usually can't help with stabilizing.
So my ideal ramp would be a combination of blue draw + black sweeper + early removals, with lower curve that tops with 2 sandwurm, 1 cruel, 1 ulamog. Definitely no nissa's renewal, No fireballs, No other big payoffs. Add some midrange creatures in rogue refiner, tracker, dorks. (not a fan of 3cc dork. too expensive / slow and thus too plainful if removed. )
With two colors, blue mass bounce could probably impersonate sweepers but still nothing replaces 1 mana 2 mana instant removals. Many games will lose right away if not getting blue expertise or crush. I think some sort of combination of Giocher + Zen is as close as I could get with two colors restriction. Adding Haven's 3rd color could get to the optimized ramp deck for my taste.
I think GB is the best colour choice on this challenge, the simic builds are interesting but to slow IMO and aggro will likely eat them alive I mean zombies and mardu vehicles are serious business. On the weakness I personally cut the Ballista for the second Sage and the second Gaea revenge exactly because my biggest losses where against enchantments and counters, aggro can be delayed enough with the dorks and the advocates; machinegun killed or even sweeped. (I run 2 heavens//earth + big Chandra) Heaven is also a cheap surge activator for fall of the titans which can be a big play and you even get to leave a sweeper on sight which avoids most decks to continue playing threats, thus buying you some time. On the other hand the fireballs are versatile enough not just finishers and the Duskwatch Recruiter is the best top deck there is for a ramp deck IMO, I abuse it when I drop him late, you can easily go 12 cards deep on your library per turn drawing answers or threats, also the Glory bringers and the Locus of rage are huge in this deck. My deck is week against indestructible, I was going to add a couple of grasping dunes but it sound like too much effort to pull that kill. I had a good time testing it but the splash of black will make it far better, hopefully the pilots will enjoy playing it.
Elk gets my vote even though I'd swap out the Recruiters and bring in a bit more card draw (probably Tamiyo's Journal for synergy with Trackers + tutor for Ulamog, or Rishkar's Expertise or something cheaper like Elemental Bond or Mouth // Feed) and also green-hulk.
He's ticked most of my personal boxes for ramp: Advocates, Dorks, Trackers, Hydra+Passage, Ulamog. I normally like to run Nissa's Renewal to bridge the gap from 6 to 10 when running Ulamog, but with all the Weavers and Druids its pretty easy to get there. As mentioned above I'd just like to see a tutor to fish Ulamog out.
Nice. Thanks! I appreciate that. I wasn't sure the deck would get much attention (I haven't felt the most confident in this build but I think that has to do with the guidelines of the contest).
Ugh I REALLY want to change Prowling Serpopard for Verdurous Gearhulk. I had several options to combat control which is/has been fairly common in the meta. Those choices worked fine but I started making other changes that I liked more (i.e. Duskwatch Recruiter that can activate 2 or 3 times a turn and dig for needed answers while also flipping to help with ramping) which ended up cutting several of the answers for control. I kept Serpopard since it can't be countered (like Altered Ego) and it could be fetched by Woodland Bellower but since I have removed Blossoming Defense and can't really protect it (or any other creatures), it doesn't seem as effective now. Might as well have another great target to copy with Ego and just keep going for broke. Dang it! Oh well. It's all for fun in the end.
Joined: Nov 20, 2013 Posts: 806 Location: Bama gulf coast
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I had a real off the wall G/W token ramp deck I was going to submit but I just didn't get the time in on it to make sure it was optimized. During the time I did test, it struggled greatly vs control that played liliana tlh. Basically it wasn't good enough and simic ramp was the other build, one that I have played with a decent bit before this contests and while I feel it's a fine deck I wasn't bringing anything new to what I figured would be represented here. That deck doesn't struggle vs control hardly at all.
I will try and test yall's stuff and post my results when I have time. Hopefully on the weekend.
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The Last Fight Club Champion "If there can be no victory, then I will fight forever." —Koth of the Hammer
Modulo's Eldrazi Mid-Ramp Record: 4-3 Notes: Plan A is to attack a lot. Plan B is to attack even more. Better than I thought it would be, really, though I didn't face any real control or other ramp. Reality Smasher is a hero, and getting it early is obviously huge. A couple losses may have been down to bad/slow draws, but it seems this may have a real problem with b/r aggro that deploys quickly (especially with flyers) and follows up with removal/direct damage. MVP: Along with the Smasher, Spatial Contortion & Nature's Way. These seemed to get key in just about every win. Ditch: this is more of an "add": Lifecrafter's Bestiary. This deck needs more ways to card advantage, and Bestiary does the work on cast, so you get the draw even if you hit a counter, plus the scry is huge, and it works with your little guys which gives it the edge over elemental bond. I'd probably pull a seed guardian and a land to make room for two.
Game logs:
1: Going on memory, don't even remember what I faced here. Know I had an advocate and an early reality smasher, and a key Nature's way. Not much resistance surfaced after that. 2: W tokens (play): double advocate, spatial contortion and big Nissa in my opening hand, plus excellent topdecks the whole way through. T2 Ruin, T3 Contortion hits their early selfless spirit plus I drop an advocate, they play a monument and get a suppression bonds on T4 Nissa, but then they're on defense against the Advocates and having to chump instead of going wide. They play a Thot-Knot but I'm only holding a ruin in hand as deception, then top a Nature's way to kill it and get the card back. They find Gisela but she's not enough, especially since I have a passage to send a seed guardian through every turn and I'm getting bigger with every draw. 3: mono black (play): This one is rough, I keep after one mulligan with flip Nissa, hydra and five land. Once I see they're on mono black, with a t2 gifted aetherborn, I'm holding Nissa till I can flip her same turn. Get a ruin to speed up, but t5 hydra's still the first thing I get on the board. Nissa flips and I have Nature's way for the aetherborn, but I lose the Hydra to a copter and grasp of darkness. Get some good draws after that but I get hit with more removal and a couple bone pickers. The final straw is a Yahenni followed by Ob Nixilis, and a tooth collector (really?) that ruins my day. 4: br aggro (play): think I've got a decent start when I contortion their bloodrage brawler eot, but they've pitched a Scrounger to it that comes back, which makes their unlicensed disintegrations hurt, then there's bone picker again (grrr) and Heir of Falkenrath, and a stray Cartouche to keep me from blocking the Scrounger for a turn, and the damage is enough. 5: bw removal (draw, AI): they disconnect on the second turn, after I kill their aetherborn with a contortion. AI plays little lily, grasps my tireless tracker and starts plussing. No other creatures come down on their side, so I hit t5 and send a smasher after lily, which they grasp my turn to save her, then their turn they get the plains for an unmaking, but that's 4 cards and 3 damage spent to kill it, and my t6 I just have bellower come fetch another tracker. They minus lily to get aetherborn back, but I'm ready with Nature's way, flip Nissa and a healthy hand to their nada. 6: bw annoying as hell (play): is this the same deck over again? Feels like it. it's taken until my sixth match to finally see a druid, weird; here I get two. That gives me a T3 Thot-Knot; I use it to pull a grasp, which leaves them an unmaking for it. They get an aetherborn. I contortion it. They get an Ayli. I contortion it. They get another aetherborn. I attack with my bellower and trade. They get the third aetherborn and ob nixilis. Are you kidding me? I sacrifice an advocate to attack ob with everything (I've added a seed guardian and tracker by this point) and kill it, then play another advocate. They get Yahenni and an Orchid knight, I get a Nature's way for that last damn aetherborn. They get GideotT, and I'm a little stuck at 4 lands & 2 Druids, so my advocate is small and I can't play the Revenge in my hand. Luckily I top big Nissa and get in a couple swings with big lands that they chump with a man land and the knight before they get an unmaking on her. Finally get another land for the Revenge and a clue, draw into a ruin for the sixth land and put on a proper beat down. I win and curse the opp to forevermore face creatureless superfriends and mill. 7: gb (play, AI): mulligan leaves me with 5 land, druid and revenge, but two of the land are Wilds so at least I can thin the land a bit. That's fine, I get another early Seer, exile bone Picker, eventually get out Revenge but have to trade it with an aetherborn, so the board is just me and a druid and 6+ land to opp's 3 land and nothing else. I have a slight advantage then, at least until opp proceeds to draw things to play while I draw almost entirely land until I die.
Haven_PT's Golgari Big-Ramp Record: 3-4 Notes: I was excited to play this, and it is a lot of fun when it works, but there's a huge hole in the early game, especially against control where the removal isn't useful. Having to wait till T3 to start ramping is just too slow, especially with only 21 land/3 maps. The lifegain can help, but you have to get there first, and a couple games I couldn't. MVP: Gift of Paradise and Nissas Ditch: I guess start by swapping battle at the Bridge for more land, but I'm not sure that totally solves the problems. May need a more significant reworking.
Game Logs
1: wweenie (play): gift of paradise is a great card. The extra life gives me plenty of room to wait, play a T4 vegetation, then languish and Oath their board of audacious infiltrator/Glory-Bound Initiate/Oketra. They play some more little guys, but I play and flip Nissa, and the Ashaya and zombie tokens hold them off, while a couple grasps and a Greenwarden in hand keep the game under my control. They dusk away the Ashaya, but most of their gy is three power and doesn't come back. Meanwhile I draw into Revenge and then Ulamog. Game. 2: wg midrange (draw): slow start, we both stall at 2 land for a turn, they play little Nissa then waste a reclamation sage on my tiny ballista, which pings to trade. Nissa is an unfortunate match for the cruel reality in my hand, but as I build to that (paradise-vegetation-renewal) I find a convergence, so I'm in a good place if I can get everything out in time. They get a GideOath and a Woodland Wanderer, stop building Nissa and start adding counters. I push a token and grasp a serpopard to slow them down, then I've got my enchantments running and add a big Nissa for good measure. The extra 10 life from my ramp was big here. 3: rw tokens (play): after mulligan I keep lily & Sandwurm with five lands, hoping she'll slow them down while I draw into something else. I draw into cruel reality, renewal and hydra, while they play Kari Zev, monument, Valor in akros, Caracal & angel of invention. Lily doesn't do much slowing. Valorized tokens wipe me out t6. 4: ur combo(draw): wherein we sit and play nothing. They dump spells into their graveyard and draw, I just have big stuff and removal so I can't get anything down until a big Nissa, they harnessed lightning the first animated land and then I don't get another so I can't play anything else in my hand. They get a bunch of zombie tokens and big Chandra for the kill. 5: ru combo (draw): wherein we sit and play nothing again. T4 they get Baral and I push. I get big Nissa again, get an animated land harnessed again, but this time I can still get a renewal out, then Cruel Reality and Sandwurms. 6: ugw (draw): mulligan to 6 and keep the only 2 land I'll see all game. They aren't super quick, but they goldfish me t7. 7: ugw (draw): play a ballista, sac it to push thalia, wait for land #3 to show up. It doesn't.
Joined: Nov 10, 2013 Posts: 17748 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
yikes, those are two rough starts. Without even trying this stuff yet, I have a FEELING Cucho and Elk's decks will be the ones that will perform best for me. But who knows. They all look alarmingly inconsistent. But I think combo-like decks are like that.
Haven_PT's Golgari Big-Ramp Record: 3-4 Notes: I was excited to play this, and it is a lot of fun when it works, but there's a huge hole in the early game, especially against control where the removal isn't useful. Having to wait till T3 to start ramping is just too slow, especially with only 21 land/3 maps. The lifegain can help, but you have to get there first, and a couple games I couldn't. MVP: Gift of Paradise and Nissas Ditch: I guess start by swapping battle at the Bridge for more land, but I'm not sure that totally solves the problems. May need a more significant reworking.
Game Logs
1: wweenie (play): gift of paradise is a great card. The extra life gives me plenty of room to wait, play a T4 vegetation, then languish and Oath their board of audacious infiltrator/Glory-Bound Initiate/Oketra. They play some more little guys, but I play and flip Nissa, and the Ashaya and zombie tokens hold them off, while a couple grasps and a Greenwarden in hand keep the game under my control. They dusk away the Ashaya, but most of their gy is three power and doesn't come back. Meanwhile I draw into Revenge and then Ulamog. Game. 2: wg midrange (draw): slow start, we both stall at 2 land for a turn, they play little Nissa then waste a reclamation sage on my tiny ballista, which pings to trade. Nissa is an unfortunate match for the cruel reality in my hand, but as I build to that (paradise-vegetation-renewal) I find a convergence, so I'm in a good place if I can get everything out in time. They get a GideOath and a Woodland Wanderer, stop building Nissa and start adding counters. I push a token and grasp a serpopard to slow them down, then I've got my enchantments running and add a big Nissa for good measure. The extra 10 life from my ramp was big here. 3: rw tokens (play): after mulligan I keep lily & Sandwurm with five lands, hoping she'll slow them down while I draw into something else. I draw into cruel reality, renewal and hydra, while they play Kari Zev, monument, Valor in akros, Caracal & angel of invention. Lily doesn't do much slowing. Valorized tokens wipe me out t6. 4: ur combo(draw): wherein we sit and play nothing. They dump spells into their graveyard and draw, I just have big stuff and removal so I can't get anything down until a big Nissa, they harnessed lightning the first animated land and then I don't get another so I can't play anything else in my hand. They get a bunch of zombie tokens and big Chandra for the kill. 5: ru combo (draw): wherein we sit and play nothing again. T4 they get Baral and I push. I get big Nissa again, get an animated land harnessed again, but this time I can still get a renewal out, then Cruel Reality and Sandwurms. 6: ugw (draw): mulligan to 6 and keep the only 2 land I'll see all game. They aren't super quick, but they goldfish me t7. 7: ugw (draw): play a ballista, sac it to push thalia, wait for land #3 to show up. It doesn't.
Oddly enough, the games I played against control, the deck performed really well. Yes, the removal is mostly useless, but so is their's. What I did was mostly play out small threats to pull out the counters and sit and wait. Very long games, but never and Ulamog are key to stopping their win-cons. I can see Rise from the Tides posing a problem, if you don't keep a languish or they have enough lands to counter... You got some bad draws, I guess it happens, but this is one deck that does not try to be fast. I only got mana-screwed once and I won that game (against a rakdos hand-hate deck). I've said it before and I'll say it again, I flood much more often than I get mana screwed, so all my decks run less Land than most people here like to play. I actually designed it that way, being the idea is to get the Land out of the deck so you mostly hit gas on your draws. In my testing, keeping a 2 lander with a key or a couple of removal spells was usually fine.
I like Modulo's deck but might make some different choices on the >4cmc creatures - just not sure what exactly yet.
I assume you want something to go over Seed Guardian, correct? That would be fine, the deck is not married to the card at all. I just liked that it ticked many boxes for the deck (defense vs. fliers, drops something even when removed, good creature to Emerge from). My previous version ran Pack Guardian, but that seems a bit worse without Nissa's Pilgrimage. The go-to option would be Bristling Hydra, and maybe that's the card that should be here.
Modulo's Eldrazi Mid-Ramp Record: 4-3 Notes: Plan A is to attack a lot. Plan B is to attack even more. Better than I thought it would be, really, though I didn't face any real control or other ramp. Reality Smasher is a hero, and getting it early is obviously huge. A couple losses may have been down to bad/slow draws, but it seems this may have a real problem with b/r aggro that deploys quickly (especially with flyers) and follows up with removal/direct damage. MVP: Along with the Smasher, Spatial Contortion & Nature's Way. These seemed to get key in just about every win. Ditch: this is more of an "add": Lifecrafter's Bestiary. This deck needs more ways to card advantage, and Bestiary does the work on cast, so you get the draw even if you hit a counter, plus the scry is huge, and it works with your little guys which gives it the edge over elemental bond. I'd probably pull a seed guardian and a land to make room for two.
The deck is indeed a bit weak to fliers; especially Bone Picker; but there's only so much you can do against them. YMMV here, but Bestiary was a card I tried and found to be too slow. For the card to be worth it, you'd need to draw about 3-4 cards off it; you're generally ending the game quicker than that IMO. Shaving the 11th Forest seems plausible though; not exactly sure what I'd add over it but would lean towards Skysovereign, Consul Flagship.
BTW, 5 lands is almost always a mulligan for the deck IMO, even if it means going down to 6. You either drew your ramp cards, in which case you practically have more than 5 lands in hand (which would be a mulligan); or you didn't, in which case you don't have good and relevant early plays. The one exception I can think of is if the hand is 5 lands, t2 play (Advocate, Ramp, Contortion) plus a Tracker (basically your only out to flood)
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Joined: Nov 10, 2013 Posts: 17748 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Ok warm ups are done, all decks beat the AI, that's a first. These decks are super fun.
Let's start round one of playtesting. I gotta start with red of course, so Cuchos great balls are up...got absolutely destroyed 24-0 against Radkos vamps. What am I supposed to Do against fliers? Had to mull to six and keep a two lander with flamecaller in hand. Opponent had T2 heir and T3 masquerade which kept it ahead of my rolling thunder. 0-1 deck gladly deleted. Let's see if anything else ties this for last place
Last edited by Black Barney on Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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