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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:12 am 
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Kithkin are just hobbits, but they can't use the name. They seem to want to distance themselves from halflings as well, mostly, I'd imagine, because of brand identity distinction.

But whatever a hobbit's schtick is, that's pretty much what the kithkin schtick is. Soooo... good-natured xenophobia and a love of food.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:30 am 
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Brady Dommermuth wrote:
It might be easier to talk about what the kithkin are not: They’re not dwarves or hobbits. They don’t have an unusual fondness for 'pipe-weed' or ale, they don’t go barefoot or burst into song more than other races, and they don’t take particular pride in their beards or gardens.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:37 am 
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Mown wrote:
Brady Dommermuth wrote:
It might be easier to talk about what the kithkin are not: They’re not dwarves or hobbits. They don’t have an unusual fondness for 'pipe-weed' or ale, they don’t go barefoot or burst into song more than other races, and they don’t take particular pride in their beards or gardens.

And yet, the original kithkin turned up in the Legends I cycle and halfling was used interchangeably in that context.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:12 am 
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So the conclusion I should take is then that Lor/Sha Kithkins aren't actually Kithkins, because they aren't like Hobbits, and being like Hobbits is a part of the Kithkin core identity?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:26 am 
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Mown wrote:
So the conclusion I should take is then that Lor/Sha Kithkins aren't actually Kithkins, because they aren't like Hobbits, and being like Hobbits is a part of the Kithkin core identity?

I'd argue that they are kithkins, but Brady was ultimately arguing for brand identity... because the Lor/Moor kithkin have a LOT of Hobbit traits despite his protestation that they don't.

Hell, one of the crucial scenes of Morningtide was Brigid ruining a plan specifically because she inappropriately burst into song!

The community orientation was also basically the Shire itself, with things that are 'different' being shunned. That was a tremendous part of the Shadowmoor identity, in fact.

About the only triat the Lorwyn kithkin demonstrate that is at odds with Hobbits is a fondness for heroics instead of the quiet life.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:05 am 
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Barinellos wrote:
Mown wrote:
Brady Dommermuth wrote:
It might be easier to talk about what the kithkin are not: They’re not dwarves or hobbits. They don’t have an unusual fondness for 'pipe-weed' or ale, they don’t go barefoot or burst into song more than other races, and they don’t take particular pride in their beards or gardens.

And yet, the original kithkin turned up in the Legends I cycle and halfling was used interchangeably in that context.
Wait, there are kithkin in the Legends I cycle? Does it say they're from Amrou, and if yes, where Amrou is located? As far as I know, it's still one of those places of which we don't know the location, right?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:03 am 
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The Unknown Shadows from Soldiers Live have convinced me that the sidhe stuff of Lorwyn could be frightening under the right circumstances.

edit

And I am done with Soldiers Live.
Spoiler

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:07 pm 
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I'm going to say it. Hobbits suck. THey just aren't interesting in any way. Well, the hairy feet thing's okay. Half of the hobbit/halfling/kithkin identity is already covered by another fantasy race that does it better. The other half is generic enough to apply to everybody. And two thirds of it is boring.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:33 pm 
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TPmanW wrote:
I'm going to say it. Hobbits suck. THey just aren't interesting in any way. Well, the hairy feet thing's okay. Half of the hobbit/halfling/kithkin identity is already covered by another fantasy race that does it better. The other half is generic enough to apply to everybody. And two thirds of it is boring.

This is one of the two reasons I don't hate Kender as much as some others do (because they bring in something vaguely new; the other being I never had to deal with someone roleplaying one to the hilt at the table).

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:13 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
Mown wrote:

And yet, the original kithkin turned up in the Legends I cycle and halfling was used interchangeably in that context.
Wait, there are kithkin in the Legends I cycle? Does it say they're from Amrou, and if yes, where Amrou is located? As far as I know, it's still one of those places of which we don't know the location, right?

Amrou was never mentioned. They were mercenaries from the foothills hired by Johan.

TPmanW wrote:
I'm going to say it. Hobbits suck. THey just aren't interesting in any way. Well, the hairy feet thing's okay. Half of the hobbit/halfling/kithkin identity is already covered by another fantasy race that does it better. The other half is generic enough to apply to everybody. And two thirds of it is boring.
I'd like to see something closer to the leprechaun and sidhe that Hobbits took note from.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:53 am 
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Barinellos wrote:
...
TPmanW wrote:
I'm going to say it. Hobbits suck. THey just aren't interesting in any way. Well, the hairy feet thing's okay. Half of the hobbit/halfling/kithkin identity is already covered by another fantasy race that does it better. The other half is generic enough to apply to everybody. And two thirds of it is boring.
I'd like to see something closer to the leprechaun and sidhe that Hobbits took note from.

I think elves cornered the market on sidhe aspects while the hobbits were away. LEprechaun would be a good direction though. Kender were a step towards that, but they could play up the mischievous angle further. I'm actually playing a brownie right now. I'm actually the Tarrasque though. Being a brownie's more like my cover, and I don't really understand the line between mischief and psychopathy.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:29 am 
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TPmanW wrote:
I think elves cornered the market on sidhe aspects while the hobbits were away. LEprechaun would be a good direction though. Kender were a step towards that, but they could play up the mischievous angle further. I'm actually playing a brownie right now. I'm actually the Tarrasque though. Being a brownie's more like my cover, and I don't really understand the line between mischief and psychopathy.

Elves are a chimera of the sidhe and Alfir. Besides, elves have remarkably little to do with the actual Aes Sidhe beyond 'beauty'.

But that is splitting hairs.

Speaking of Leprechauns, anyone watching American Gods?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:13 am 
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Yes, and it has been amazing so far.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:22 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
Mown wrote:
So the conclusion I should take is then that Lor/Sha Kithkins aren't actually Kithkins, because they aren't like Hobbits, and being like Hobbits is a part of the Kithkin core identity?

I'd argue that they are kithkins, but Brady was ultimately arguing for brand identity... because the Lor/Moor kithkin have a LOT of Hobbit traits despite his protestation that they don't.

Hell, one of the crucial scenes of Morningtide was Brigid ruining a plan specifically because she inappropriately burst into song!

The community orientation was also basically the Shire itself, with things that are 'different' being shunned. That was a tremendous part of the Shadowmoor identity, in fact.

About the only triat the Lorwyn Kithkin demonstrate that is at odds with Hobbits is a fondness for heroics instead of the quiet life.

Despite being the only magic books I have copies of, all of Lor/Sha is such a blur to me that I remember nothing but rough outlines.
A lot of the heroic nature of Kithkin probably comes in large parts because Lorwyn is a block about tribal warfare, and you can't have a tribe of creatures that don't participate. I do think they have a craftiness that exceeds Hobbits though, and their alchemical mysticism approach is quite neat.
I don't have the impression of Lorwyn Kithkin as notably xenophobic, they seem relatively friendly given the environments. Certainly in comparison to Elves, but they're also the top end of that spectrum. The Shadowmoor ones, on the other hand, have a paranoia to the point of perpetual anxiety that clashes with the more easy-going nature of Hobbits (although that might change if they were in the same circumstances.)

Regardless, the question was regarding the inclusion of Kithkin on other planes. What are the pillars of kithkinhood? Are they just midgets that could be any combination of colors, or do they have a dominant white trait?
Which also makes me wonder, are there any planeswalkers (or legendary creatures) that aren't of their race's dominant color?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:48 pm 
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Purraj of Urborg comes to mind, we don't usually see black cat people. Maralen of the Mornsong is unusual for Magic elves in general, though not for those on Lorwyn. But on the whole, I don't think there are many legends and 'walkers that are completely off colour and don't just splash. Maybe you could add Ugin for being a colourless dragon, but that's all that I can come up with right now.

The white trait that all kithkin share would be community I guess.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:57 pm 
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Purraj of Urborg comes to mind, we don't usually see black cat people. Maralen of the Mornsong is unusual for Magic elves in general, though not for those on Lorwyn. But on the whole, I don't think there are many legends and 'walkers that are completely off colour and don't just splash. Maybe you could add Ugin for being a colourless dragon, but that's all that I can come up with right now.

The white trait that all kithkin share would be community I guess.

If I had my way cats would be black by default and Ajani would be the weird one.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:21 am 
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I think "community" is too bland for the Kithkin trait, but I also think you can narrow it down. It's not just a general sense of community, but a more familial or village sort of community. What we see of the Kor of Zendikar, for example, is a sense of community with all Kor and even all travelers, but the Kithkin's community sorta stops at the village border. That's something more specific to work with.

Housecats (and other cats, I guess) might be Black or Red, but the leonin are based on more communal species such as lions. I'd argue that housecats are also reasonably communal (given their evolutionary history), but their sense of community and cohabitation is vastly different from ours. Housecats are best compared with highly introverted humans in this regard. Their idea of having a good time together means quietly being in the same room, but doing different things.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:32 am 
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Yxoque wrote:
I think "community" is too bland for the Kithkin trait, but I also think you can narrow it down. It's not just a general sense of community, but a more familial or village sort of community. What we see of the Kor of Zendikar, for example, is a sense of community with all Kor and even all travelers, but the Kithkin's community sorta stops at the village border. That's something more specific to work with.

That would be the xenophobia I ascribed them.
In shadowmoor it was central and overt, but it was still present in Lorwyn. Lorwyn was just a brighter, sunnier place and OH GOOD GODS, I just realized they were essentially the village from Hot Fuzz.

(the greater good)

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:48 am 
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Yxoque wrote:
Housecats (and other cats, I guess) might be Black or Red, but the leonin are based on more communal species such as lions. I'd argue that housecats are also reasonably communal (given their evolutionary history), but their sense of community and cohabitation is vastly different from ours. Housecats are best compared with highly introverted humans in this regard. Their idea of having a good time together means quietly being in the same room, but doing different things.


Domestic cats in Magic have always been . This is because they're domesticated animals, and sometimes have sacred duties (i.e. eliminate pests). Plus, purring has healing properties.

In this case, they're not so much 's community aspect (though cats do love their owners), but 's "tools". Like what zombies are for .

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:51 am 
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Yxoque wrote:
Housecats (and other cats, I guess) might be Black or Red, but the leonin are based on more communal species such as lions. I'd argue that housecats are also reasonably communal (given their evolutionary history), but their sense of community and cohabitation is vastly different from ours. Housecats are best compared with highly introverted humans in this regard. Their idea of having a good time together means quietly being in the same room, but doing different things.


Domestic cats in Magic have always been . This is because they're domesticated animals, and sometimes have sacred duties (i.e. eliminate pests).

In this case, they're not so much 's community aspect (though cats do love their owners), but 's "tools". Like what zombies are for .

Zombie Illusion Cat Beast for president!

...red doesn't have a tool race, does it?

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