My idea around building this deck was based on the following new Amonkhet cards




Outside of Brawler, look at all that yummy text and awesome beatdown range (personally I'm in love with the Prowler. A card that can't be countered!!!! Suck it expensive Gaea's Revenge!) A lot of the cards that went into this deck from there were pretty easy picks.

I did worry about the discard for the Brawler though and was attempting to compensate. I added extra land to help get to the 5 drops while it still being a valid option to discard. Insult // Injury is another great discard target. Everyone wants the double damage and that's a lot of fun with trample, but the power level in this deck is still fine and will get the wins without doubling. The graveyard Injury is just fine for 3 mana to ping a creature and a PW/player and again there's a lot of trample in the deck so lowering a creatures toughness is relevant. Heart-Piercer Manticore is another discard target since it has embalm. The Fling and Blossoming Defense are my next pitches which then leads to the 'every other' discard decision you might have to make based on the cards/lines/opponent etc.

I also added several card advantage options to the deck to get back to parity or better in Duskwatch Recruiter, Tireless Tracker, Both Chandra's and Big Nissa. Most of which can be cast in such a way that they can get advantage the turn they're played. We're aiming to come out strong and then use strong finishers with these sorts of cards included to try and dig ourselves out of holes. Now maybe there should be more compensation if the discard is still hurting (we are only talking 3 cards here right?). I did cut one Duskwatch and maybe that was wrong and I should add it back in. Maybe Nissa, Vastwood Seer should be considered?

Another option is like Rabble suggested, go the route of something like Lambholt Pacifist and drop the Bloodrage Brawler? I don't like it but if it's just coming up short that many times and wrecking that many games, maybe it's just not right here. I just think the number of games it comes out strong compensates for the games it gets Fatal Push and I hope it's not a case of folks measuring by the 'feels bad' stick.

Or another option is going back to one of my original inclusions in Hazoret the Fervent which was great when curving with Bloodrage. It has a ping option for dead draws and flood too. That and it does still work with all the other card advantage. You either draw gas with the advantage or you draw cards you can ping with while still having the chance to activate hellbent with Hazoret's ability.


Thoughts?


elk

I was thinking Pacifist AND Brawler, but I just dropped the concept.

I don't think the concept should be dropped, yes the deck is prone to flooding, but the list I put up has been 8/2 so far on rank 30+ on steam, so it is definitely very playable.

I do think you have to choose though, either you go very agressive with brawlers AND pacifists and insult and a top end of say; 1 arlin (or a fleetwheel cruiser) 2 manticore 1 hazoret and 2 glorybringer, on 23 lands, or you cram more powerful 4's and 5's and lose a couple more games due to flood.


@ Barney :

I was animating lands with nissa and tossing them at kalitas and gideon

oh man, that's so hawt. I love that idea

Actually the first manticore tossed a depleted hellion at kalitas, the second tossed a land at gideon after it had killed the knight token (didn't target gideon with the attack, he was at 7, so just went for his face, figuring that if he doesn't block, he just dies, but the dude correctly blocked). He then played the Gisela, and I played Arlin attacking with a 5/5 land and 6/5 manticore.... he then felt like he HAD to kill nissa, since I could just embalm the first manticore to fling a land at him, so he attacked with Ayli; and played Ob nixilis to kill the manticore, which left him open to a hasted +2+2 tracker and a sandbagged land

I didn't get to add this to my post because I had to leave for the doctor's (had to get needles ) but I wanted to add some 'maths' to the logic behind my choices. In all fairness, I'm not a math guy but more of a stats keeper and 'math logic' versus actually calculating the numbers.

If we consider the 3 Bloodrage Brawler and the 2 lands needed to cast them, we potentially have 55 cards to discard (yes you could discard a Brawler to a Brawler - shut it).

23 lands, 2 Insult // Injury and 1 Heart-Piercer Manticore are all reasonable discards
1 Fling and 2 Blossoming Defense are 'ok' discards
1 Duskwatch Recruiter, 2 Tireless Tracker, 1 Nissa, Vital Force, 1 Chandra, Flamecaller, 1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance all of which should be able to get back to card parity based on when you cast them (and you should be considering them that way if any of these are in your opening hand with a Bloodrage). Even though these could end up gaining advantage beyond parity, I'm only considering them for replacing the discard here.

So 35 out of the 55 remaining cards should be 'fine' with the discard aspect. Then we get into the fact that we have an additional mulligan (which is huge) that makes this even better. Then there's of course calculating % for having a Brawler in your opening hand as well as % for having a decent discard target in hand too. Not to mention how some of this could matter more/less based on the type of deck you're facing or skill level of opponent etc.

Now there's something to be said if we're on the play vs. draw. Bloodrage is what we want on the play T2 but becomes incredibly much worse if it gets removed immediately. That can definitely 'feel bad' if they're sitting with a full grip of cards while you're left with 3. If we're on the draw though, getting the extra card does compensate for us staying at parity when we play it T2. Then there's of course the games that 'fail' when say we ditch a land and it ends up costing you a turn or more to reach 5 mana or the game was over before you could play the Manticore using it's embalm cost or we get crushed by natural variance (screw/flood/wrong cards @ wrong times) etc etc etc.

Regardless, I still feel we're on the winning side with this plan and the times it works/pays off is more significant than the times it doesn't. Like Rabble said, I'm fine with 8-2 type records or what Barney was indicating for his record. As long as we're on a decent positive side, I'll take the odd 'turd' game (especially if I get to play these style of beat down decks).

Now based on what Rabble said, maybe I should revisit adding back in the 2nd Duskwatch or consider the Nissa, Vastwood Seer idea to compensate for flood and potential discard. That still keeps us in the mid-range beats. It also makes me wonder how much it should be modified for the 'low to the ground' aggressive breed but it sounds like it could be another deck variation to try.

I still think Bloodrage is a good card though and worth keeping in the shell versus it only shining in some red aggro or Rakdos (or other) madness type variant(s).


elk


edit - Oh and I FINALLY got my first Arlinn Kord with a +1 into Glorybringer and as expected, it was gross. Of course the game was over the following turn so I didn't get to milk it a bunch but still, it was as great as I had hoped it would be. Eat my 4/4 hasty beats with 4 damage removal over and over! Muhahaha!

it's not so much WHAT the brawlers are discarding as it is that we are handicapping ourselves of a resource. Like I REALLY don't want to discard Insult even if the math shows it's not that painful cuz we can still Injury. The fact is that Insult is a MASSIVE win condition for this deck and I don't want to ditch it.

Again, I'm not crapping on brawler, it's a double-edged sword and I'm going to keep going with it.

I'm done majorly playtesting your Gruul Midrange for now just cuz I have other stuff to test (Sixty's mono-red, Kel's zombies. But I'm keeping your deck in the hopper Elk (I still play Durdling Mess afterall) and I can't WAIT for the control match-up where I might get the prowler out early. Hope the feedback was helpful

...oh yeah I never talked about Arlinn Kord... I played that card a bunch in this deck and I don't think I EVER did the +1. I also made the wolf and used her other side to either boost everyone or kill a blocker. I found that more useful.

Heh. I totally relate to the character who did the islandwalk Enchantments combo. Throne of the God-Pharaoh and Anointed Procession in play with 10 Instants/Sorceries in graveyard - cast Rise From the Tides to put 20 tapped zombies in play that will kill you on my endstep - what you got to say? Oh. Kozilek's Return. I guess I'm out then.

first off, I love the way you put WORK into your threads, I think it's something many people could learn from.

The format is replete with good removal at that mana spot that neuters brawler, and leaves you down a card (your discards are 'acceptable' indeed, but in a deck like the one you offered, you do NOT want to drop that land early, be honest.).


Brawler is a good card in a deck that doesn't want to play more than 3 lands and is just throwing their resources at the opponent's lifetotal. Whilst this deck certainly does the latter, it certainly wants to keep going up the curve. Rakdos Hellbent does not.

Brawler is also a good card in a deck that wants to discard for value, like tossing Haunted Dead, Scroungers, Prized Amalgams and the like. Fiery Temper is also ok, but going t3 play my 4/3, bolt you, is something that the deck has to be able to fully back up; and I don't think I have seen the list yet in Duels that can truly capitalize on it. Discarding haunted dead to it and going t3 bolt your thing + play 6 power is totally broken, but fortuately for Duels amalgam is a rare, and most other openings of the deck are much weaker.

Those are my 2c anyway.

Thank you very much. I appreciate that


Fatal Push suuuuucccckkkkkssss..... but outside of that, I often feel they had to use 'better' removal or had to invest in removal for my 2 drop. That does help make any of my later plays better. Still it definitely lacks card parity which can hurt at times. I just try to find a little solace in the removal's weight/value when it happens.
As for lands, I agree it's best for the deck to slap lands down to 5 but it does function at 3 and 4 which we usually can achieve consistently and on time. If discarding a land costs me 2-3 turns of tempo then that's a problem but many folks have been saying how often this deck is flooding. Hopefully that means we're compensating for the most common discard while still getting to 5 in a consistent/reasonable manner. That to me says we need more value/gas cards to compensate for flood which in turn compensates for discard. I'll test out the Pacifist suggestion to see how things go. I'll also try another version with the 2nd Duskwatch (and a few other ideas) to explore the value route.


I agree. Brawler fits those shells well. If folks don't have the removal for it, this 2CMC card (like Heart of Kiran) just take over games and puts a real clock up. That's so hard to ignore. It's why I was hoping that instead of the synergy route most folks are taking, I can get there through deck value and card quality (which again is why I'm thinking the second Duskwatch or similar may need to come in).


You all make good points and definitely have me second guessing this choice. Maybe I'm just a dog with a bone who won't let go



elk

GR Brute Force

Creature(30)
2x Sylvan Advocate
3x Duskwatch Recruiter
3x Voltaic Brawler
2x Lathnu Hellion
2x Tireless Tracker
2x Prowling Serpopard
3x Khenra Charioteer
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1x Rhonas the Indomitable
2x Heart-Piercer Manticore
2x Bristling Hydra
1x Hazoret the Fervent
1x Verdurous Gearhulk
2x Glorybringer
1x Ridgescale Tusker
1x Samut, Voice of Dissent
1x Honored Hydra

Instant(3)
3x Blossoming Defense

Planeswalker(4)
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1x Arlinn Kord
1x Nissa, Vital Force
1x Chandra, Flamecaller

Land(23)
2x Cinder Glade
6x Mountain
9x Forest
2x Rootbound Crag
4x Evolving Wilds

To view this deck go to: https://www.magicduelshelper.com/deckli ... d1be5386b8

Created using Magic Duels Helper: http://www.magicduelshelper.com


Creature heavy version. What do you think?

I think it's good but your curve is too high. 8 2-drops is too few. That almost means every other game you have nothing on board till your T3, while the opponent BR or WR aggro can deal lethal on your T4 with fliers copter, heart of kiran, 3/2 vampire etc. Even if you survive T4 and get a couple big dudes on board, you are still far behind.

Need ways to deal with fliers and opponents early creatures by T3. Removals! Think this, what if opponent has Glorybringer?

Evolution Gruul

1 x Heaven // Earth

3 x Bloodrage Brawler
3 x Voltaic Brawler
2 x Exemplar of Strength
3 x Harnessed Lightning
2 x Smuggler's Copter

1 x Rhonas the Indomitable
2 x Tireless Tracker
1 x Nissa, Vastwood seer
1 x Prowling Serpopard
1 x Reclamation Sage
1 x Khenra Charioteer
2 x Eldritch Evolution
4 x Fiery Temper

1 x Heart-Piercer Manticore
1 x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 x Champion of Rhonas

2 x Glorybringer
1 x Samut, Voice of Dissent
1 x Verdurous Gearhulk

1 x Woodland Bellower

1 x Omnath, Locus of Rage

6 x Mountain
7 x Forest

2 x Cinder Glade
2 x Rootbound Crag
2 x Aether Hub
1 x Timber Gorge
4 x Evolving Wilds


Trying to maximize the power and flexibility of Eldritch Evolution...so a lot of one-offs, toolbox style

In particular, and among several others, the old package Omnath/Trackers is there, now much more possible due to the Evolutions

Many new AKH awesome targets for our EEs

Last game, attack with Champion, exert him into Samut. Next turn, EE tapped Champion into Bellower plus Charioteer FTW...

Ok, having faced this deck twice on the ladder I now get the ideal starting hand. Bit salty I stabilised on one life to die to Injury 6 turns later lol.

Care to elaborate? I'd be interested to hear how the games played, curved and the lines you took as well as your build match up against the deck. Would you have done anything different? What sort of outs did you have? What turns were big? The decks you faced; was it the same person or different people? If they were different, what sort of variations were there between the two? How did their decks compare to the ones listed here?

Sorry - I enjoy the details and always looking for ways to improve builds. It'd be fantastic if you're willing to share (same to any other folks who've faced off against this archetype).


elk

I'll try the most recent one where I lost to Injury. From memory it was only 4 turns I'd stabilised from, not 6. I was running U/B Control on the draw. Opening hand: Evolving Wilds, Aether Hub, Swamp, Drowned Catacomb, Grasp of Darkness, Pull from Tomorrow, Censor.

T1: R/G Dual land. I played Evolving Wilds for a 2nd Swamp and pass.
T2: Mountain, Bloodrage Brawler discarding another mountain. I play Catacomb and pass.
T3: Forest, Voltaic Brawler, I kill Bloodrage with Grasp. I play Island and pass.
T4: Lanthu Hellion and swings for 8, I cycle Censor for a 2nd Pull. I play Hub and pass (nonland cards in hand 2x Pull, Spell Shrivel)
T5: Forest, Glorybringer which I cast Shrivel on, down to 4 life. I play a swamp having drawn another Grasp and pass.
T6: Evolving Wilds, Tireless Tracker, I kill the Brawler as it swings. I play another Hub and have drawn Torrential Gearhulk.
T7: Opponent casts Glorybringer 2 and swings, I respond with Gearhulk and Grasp his dragon (opponent pauses trying to Exert it I think?), I block and kill the Tracker. I pass the turn with 2x Pull as my only nonlands.
T8: Mountain, cracks a clue, throws Fiery Temper at my face, down to 1 life. I draw Scatter to the Winds and swing with Gearhulk (I had a counter to hit hasted threats).
T9: Opponent casts Arlin, I counter it, then they cast Insult. At this point I can guess where this is going and cast Pull for 5 drawing into my remaining Grasp, 2 lands, Fatal Push and Kefnet.
T10: Opponent casts Injury and I have no counterspells and all the removal I needed many turns ago.

I'm struggling to see what I could have done to stall it further. Once Injury hit the yard that was really game

The turns that mattered most were 4 and 9. 4 because that's where the explosive damage started to happen without an answer in hand until my T6. 9 mattered because Arlin would have just created a token and flipped so she could bolt me next turn and block my Gearhulk from killing her, meaning my opponent would have had 2 ways to kill me T10. This game was a little typical of what I'm experiencing at the moment with my or others control decks, where my 9 or so early removal spells aren't coming when I need them, but I have 3 mana counters and 4cmc+ spells galore in hand. I'm honestly looking at cutting Shrivels entirely and replacing them with Essence Scatters, particularly against decks like this one.

Elk, your deck got me to rank 40! Grats

20-4 I'll take a break from it for a bit but it's great

Is this your current list?

I think this is the most current one listed and what Barney is running

viewtopic.php?f=61&t=18544&start=40#p557129


elk

Swapped out the Manticores and Fling for Pacifists and have been on a roll with Elk's list. Beat Esper Control post-TITI flip, Simic Ramp that managed to get Kozilek into play, and Bant tempo with a lethal boardstate of Gideon + 2 Bishops. Having the Pacifists really screws with those opponents who don't want to tap out, and that makes Insult, Samut and Glorybringer so much better than they already are. Consistent is probably the word I'm looking for.