Joined: Mar 18, 2016 Posts: 5359 Location: Anyway the wind blows
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Yeah, my discussing madness options/outlets was more thinking out loud for zombie decks in general and less recommending for your aggro brew specifically.
One thing that makes Compulsion more attractive in zombies is Binding Mummy. Even vs Always Watching decks you can cast a zombie and tap whatever you want to kill. Not that it seems great for a deck that wants to be aggro tho.
I watched LegendVD's orzombie deck video recently and came away feeling more impressed by Diregraf than I ever though I would. When he'd get things rolling with Diregrafs and Binding Mummies (2 zombies, 2 taps with every zombie spell), it looked pretty good. Unfortunately it wants you to play some mediocre (at best) zombie 1-2 drops to maximize it which just blows if you don't draw it or it eats removal right away...
Shocked Cemetery Recruitment isn't showing up in lists. It seems like it makes the more bomb-y zombies better by giving it quick recursion and the card replaces itself. In more grindy builds, seems like a good option.
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Yeah, my discussing madness options/outlets was more thinking out loud for zombie decks in general and less recommending for your aggro brew specifically.
One thing that makes Compulsion more attractive in zombies is Binding Mummy. Even vs Always Watching decks you can cast a zombie and tap whatever you want to kill. Not that it seems great for a deck that wants to be aggro tho.
I watched LegendVD's orzombie deck video recently and came away feeling more impressed by Diregraf than I ever though I would. When he'd get things rolling with Diregrafs and Binding Mummies (2 zombies, 2 taps with every zombie spell), it looked pretty good. Unfortunately it wants you to play some mediocre (at best) zombie 1-2 drops to maximize it which just blows if you don't draw it or it eats removal right away...
Yeah, I haven't really messed with Diregraf yet as I figured it was a little too clunky. Especially once I decided to drop Fan Bearer in my aggro list. Not that Fan Bearer was completely terrible (the tap effect even helped me win a few games), but they still under performed compared to everything else. They also pushed the deck more towards which IMO wasn't great for a deck which already seems to struggle with maintaining enough non-tap lands to consistently curve out T1-3 while also being able to hit both colors early enough to do the same.
@Vert I actually ran 2 copies of Cemetery Recruitment when I was still working on unlocking cards and it worked alright. I don't think it is worth it in the more aggressive builds, but in something more slow and grindy I could definitely see it working, even if it was to just recur something like a Servant who ate removal to finish pinging out an opponent or to replay a Kalitas to stabilize. Having something to grab back a removed Husk seems like it would be good for the more crats style builds as well.
Shocked Cemetery Recruitment isn't showing up in lists. It seems like it makes the more bomb-y zombies better by giving it quick recursion and the card replaces itself. In more grindy builds, seems like a good option.
Ended up cutting it because Dusk // Dawn usually nets more than 2 cards in hand and it felt redundant to run both. Especially since big Lili can resurrect dead things too, but straight to play.
So I've been brainstorming with a mono Black Zombie deck and trying to base it around a Smallpox idea. Unfortunately we can't attack their lands which is a big factor in wrecking their resources but what can ya do? This might also work better in Orzhov but decided to stick mono with how a smallpox's deck would normally be.
Considerations: Dark Salvation (can't see how this would be cast for more than x=2 so not sure if this is worth it since we've got some good removal already) Unburden (it at least has cycling so it could be playable and ensures the opponent is in top deck) Yahenni's Expertise (we don't mind our resources being wrecked and it synergizes with Kalitas and Plague Belcher)
Questionable: Doomed Dissenter - we've got multiple ways to sac the card but it's not a zombie which has been surprisingly annoying in certain cases (it's easier to make an exception for Scrapheap though)
The deck has a couple ways to attack the hand while recurring it's own threats but like I said, it's just missing the land removal to cripple the opponent. Not sure how well this will work but it's been fun in initial testing.
Joined: Mar 18, 2016 Posts: 5359 Location: Anyway the wind blows
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@Elk - in builds I've been trying, I almost never cast Dark Salvation for more than X=2, but I still think it's worth running alongside other removal. -/- lets you kill gods that Grasp can't get. I've been seeing a fair amount of those around. Plus if you have Lords/Mastery in play those 2 zombie tokens are very nice bonus to your removal spell. Even paying 3 mana to kill a bear (assuming you cast at least 1 zombie T1/2) and get a zombie token isn't bad. A lot of versatility being able to cast it for 1 mana alongside something else too.
I don't believe it should be thought of as just a removal spell. It's a utility spell that fills two rolls, as a zombie producer plus removal. Yes you can consider it a subpar removal spell, being sorcery speed, but Push and Grasp don't give you board presence along with their kill (unless you have Kalitas out of course, in which case Salvation gives you more).
@Elk - in builds I've been trying, I almost never cast Dark Salvation for more than X=2, but I still think it's worth running alongside other removal. -/- lets you kill gods that Grasp can't get. I've been seeing a fair amount of those around. Plus if you have Lords/Mastery in play those 2 zombie tokens are very nice bonus to your removal spell. Even paying 3 mana to kill a bear (assuming you cast at least 1 zombie T1/2) and get a zombie token isn't bad. A lot of versatility being able to cast it for 1 mana alongside something else too.
I don't believe it should be thought of as just a removal spell. It's a utility spell that fills two rolls, as a zombie producer plus removal. Yes you can consider it a subpar removal spell, being sorcery speed, but Push and Grasp don't give you board presence along with their kill (unless you have Kalitas out of course, in which case Salvation gives you more).
You don't think that would be too much removal? What would be the cut?
What about the Unburden idea? It fits the plan the deck is going for and since it has cycling, it's not really a dead draw. I think I should test it but again don't know what the cut is.
I probably only need one Yahenni since Bontu is in the list.
Completely off topic, I still haven't gotten around to building that janky idea I had with Renegade Rallier, Implement of Malice, and Miasmic Mummy, but one day, one day. All the talk around Miasmic Mummy and discard got me thinking about it again lol.
You don't think that would be too much removal? What would be the cut?
What about the Unburden idea? It fits the plan the deck is going for and since it has cycling, it's not really a dead draw. I think I should test it but again don't know what the cut is.
I probably only need one Yahenni since Bontu is in the list.
elk
I don't think it's too much removal. For your list, think of it as a T3+ creature spell with ETB kill effect tacked on. I'd probably cut 2 Doomed Dissenters or 1 DD/1 Yahenni or 1 DD/1 Push. Maybe it doesn't work in the end, with things like Scrounger/DD/Copter/Yahenni/Bontu/Kali in your list not having zombie type, but at the very least I believe it's worth a look.
Idk about Unburdened. I have loved me some Mindbender in monoblack, but I'm not huge on handhate in general. Just personal preference, but makes it so I don't feel qualified to comment.
So I am playing now and I have to say in regards to Gisa's Bidding in the aggro deck, it has been an absolute house. I have won multiple games off of it already. One of which went T1 Dread Wanderer, T2 Copter, T3 Wayward Servant+Alms off Copter, T4 Festering Zombie+Bidding off Copter. It has even proven useful even when I wasn't able to cast it for it's madness cost as going T4 Bidding into T5 Lord/In Oketra's Name has won me a few games already as well.
It has honestly been doing so well that I sort of want to try and wiggle in a 3rd copy, although I feel that may be a mistake, what with only running 21 land and running relatively few discard outlets (two of which cost ). Although I could maybe cut down In Oketra's Name to a 1-of to wiggle in the 3rd copy of Bidding.
At that point I am not sure if it would be worth running In Oketra's Name at all, and it is one of the cards that is currently up for heavy inspection in list. It could maybe work as a 1-of, as something to draw into to break a stalemate, at worst when we don't need it we should have at least a few methods of pitching it for some value (Copter, Cryptbreaker, Miasmic).
So the discard/madness angle is totally legit. Hit the gold cap with a grand total of 2 losses tonight (Boros Humans, Rakdos Madness).
I was down on Alms of the Vein for the longest time in Madness decks (mostly because most of the ones I was playing were running also, which has better options IMO). I have to say that it has been nothing short of stellar here, along with Wayward Servant and Plague Belcher it gives you a surprising amount of reach, and the life gain (again with Servant and Kalitas) help us to outrace other aggro decks like Gruul that go bigger than us.
Copter is absolutely stupid here now, since we have plenty of pilots for it, and most of the time it is either giving us a ton of CA and/or reach with Alms/Bidding, or it is giving us CA by binning stuff like Scrounger and Wanderer which we can pull back out of the yard later.
I think I am getting pretty close to nailing the optimal build for aggro zombies at this point. Surprised at how well this thing has worked out.
So I've been brainstorming with a mono Black Zombie deck and trying to base it around a Smallpox idea. Unfortunately we can't attack their lands which is a big factor in wrecking their resources but what can ya do? This might also work better in Orzhov but decided to stick mono with how a smallpox's deck would normally be.
Considerations: Dark Salvation (can't see how this would be cast for more than x=2 so not sure if this is worth it since we've got some good removal already) Unburden (it at least has cycling so it could be playable and ensures the opponent is in top deck) Yahenni's Expertise (we don't mind our resources being wrecked and it synergizes with Kalitas and Plague Belcher)
Questionable: Doomed Dissenter - we've got multiple ways to sac the card but it's not a zombie which has been surprisingly annoying in certain cases (it's easier to make an exception for Scrapheap though)
The deck has a couple ways to attack the hand while recurring it's own threats but like I said, it's just missing the land removal to cripple the opponent. Not sure how well this will work but it's been fun in initial testing.
Thoughts?
elk
RE: Dark Salvation. Casting for 3-5 mana for 1-2 token zombies and removing a threat is fairly decent value. Or if you already have heaps of zombies you can just cast it for and use as removal. It's a very flexible card. Has extra value when combined with zombie ETB triggers like Binding Mummy or Diregraf Colossus
Edit: Deck scrapped. Doomed Dissenter is pretty bad not synergising with zombie stuff. It's not worth messing around with hand destruction or Bontu, etc. A no-fuss mono black zombie deck seems to be the most effective way to go.
2x Cryptbreaker 2x Dread Wanderer 4x Festering Mummy 2x Miasmic Mummy (mostly because it's a zombie and the discard usually hurts opponent more than me, as I have Cemetery Recruitment, Diregraf, etc.). 2x Plague Belcher 2x Diregraf Colossus 3x Lord of the Accursed 1x Nantuko Husk 1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2x Dark Salvation 3x Grasp of Darkness 4x Cemetery Recruitment 2x Never // Return
1x Liliana, The Last Hope 1x Liliana, Death's Majesty
22 Swamp 2 Westvale Abbey
Simple and focused.. Not trying to squeeze in other mechanics leaves room for removal. And it's all zombies except for Kalitas, but he's worth it. Will probably end up dropping Nantuko for a Copter or Harvester. Miasmic Mummy could be swapped for Rancid Rats if we need a deathtouch deterrence.
Haven't lost yet with this or the Orzhov version. 11-0.
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Joined: Mar 18, 2016 Posts: 5359 Location: Anyway the wind blows
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Ok, so, I built a GU deck for Kefnet's Monument that was heavy on cheap G creatures (packing a lot of draw effects, cantriping/recruiting/etc), whose aim was to keep opps board continually tapped down and attacking straight to face. But then I had the misfortune of re-reading the card and realizing I had it wrong and it doesn't tap, just keeps them down if already tapped. So I deleted the deck because goddammit.
I'm pretty sure the card just sucks, but I did think of two places it might maybe possibly be playable. GU spirit flash (the spirit that lets you tap creatures when playing other spirits, and Bounding Krasis most notably) was the more obvious one.
But, and hear me out here, what about Zombies? My thinking is with Binding Mummy (maybe the 1 mana fan tapper too) you can lock down opps board to win more races. I haven't really done a Binding aggressive version of zombies yet, but playing against some so far (and watching LegendVDs video), I noticed Binding is pretty good if opps playing a defensive strategy and expects its creatures to block, but vs other aggressive decks that want to attack every turn he's basically irrelevant.
But put an artifact on the board that makes Binding's targets not untap next turn, and now you've got a one sided race. With discard outlets like Cryptbreaker, you can run 3 Monuments and pitch the duplicate draws.
Kel, that mono-black zombie deck is beautiful. I'll try it for sure. Where is your orzhov build? Which is better?
You could always give my Orzhov list a try if you were looking for an aggressive zombie build Barney. Has gone 13-3 or better on the ladder the past 3 nights in a row.
At this point I think the list is about as good as it is going to get. The only cards I am still somewhat iffy on are the 2x Miasmic Mummy, which I still think may be slightly better than Key to the City in this list, and the 2x In Oketra's Name which I seem to constantly be going back and forth on. Sometimes they just win you the game right on the spot, sometimes they just end up as discard fodder.
Kel, that mono-black zombie deck is beautiful. I'll try it for sure. Where is your orzhov build? Which is better?
Thanks. My Orzhov list is around the middle of page 4 (credit to DJ as I just tweaked his list). Not sure which is stronger yet. Maybe Orzhov, but I like the flavour of mono.
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Can someone please explain me why these zombie decks I keep destroying are playing neither cast out nor anguished unmaking ? I know I know, you got 6 swords to plowshares, but srsly ?
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which IMO wasn't great for a deck which already seems to struggle with maintaining enough non-tap lands to consistently curve out T1-3 while also being able to hit both colors early enough to do the same.
). Although I could maybe cut down In Oketra's Name to a 1-of to wiggle in the 3rd copy of Bidding.
also, which has better options IMO). I have to say that it has been nothing short of stellar here, along with 
