I still think the mana is going to be tighter than you are accounting for.

Like I said, unless you are running good sources of free discard (which I will admit things like Copter and Key provide) I just don't see it happening. Look at Cryptbreaker for example. You expect to be able to pay to discard, pay the madness cost on something, and pay for the token? In most cases that is going to be an investment of at least 4-5 mana.

Cathartic? So you are paying 2 to discard, potentially paying for 1 or more madness effects, and paying for 1 or more tokens?

Again, I am not saying the card is bad, or that it can't put in some work in the correct build where you wring value out of the card over the long game. I am not even denying that the card has a decent/good home in a few pre-existing decks. I just don't think it is as great as some seem to think it is.

Madness costs are generally cheap. Like 2 or less mana. So if you're asking if I think decks can get to 5 mana, the answer is yes.

Nope, what I am in fact saying is that the card can't be jammed into any deck with a discard/cycle theme and expect to be particularly efficient. Sure most Madness costs are 2 or less(same with cycling), but if you are also paying to discard, and also paying for the tokens the cost starts to add up quickly.

Like I said, I get the point, sit behind stuff like Censor until you get up to a bunch of mana and then start the cycle/discard/madness stuff to really wring out value. You don't have to try and explain this to me.

I never said it can't work, or even that it wouldn't be good, I just don't think it will be as good as you seem to think it will be.

I'm at a crossroads. You say that you don't need me to explain why it's great but then you ignore that its great.

You should choose one or the other

So is da wisdom

I thumbed your post for the heart, Eon. Nice




Also, reportedid

Looks like Kozilek's Return will be doing work this season.

Hm. Izzet or Grixis draw/discard running both Haven and Tutelage isn't impossible. Not sure it's super great. I think the people backing Drake as the new messiah are having fond memories of Talrand, and not accounting for the mana cost for each activation of Haven.

To be clear, I'm not calling it the new messiah. I'm arguing it's a good card for a specific type of deck. Don't think anyone's calling it the best card in its color, much less this set.

Really this is all Psychatog's fault. He waited too long to toss us more scraps, so now we're devouring each other. I hope you're happy, Psych, you sadistic bastard.

Didn't mean you. Unfortunately, putting someone on ignore doesn't stop people from quoting them.

And if you did, I'll bet Verts penile pump that you click on every one of his hidden posts just to see