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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:37 pm 
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whenever I play control and see the opponent drops turn 3 liliana I ask myself what I am doing here?
I hate this kind of auto-loss.
and I hate aggro mirror where luck plays huge factor.

Basically, I need a deck that answers T3 liliana T4 Gideon chain, and also answers T1 Toolcraft, T2 copter T3 motorist + fiery temper. Otherwise I can't feel comfortable playing it. - ok, it has to handle opponent's one counter spell per every turn from T3, it has to answer gaea's revenge turn 4.

luckily one deck exists that meets all the above.


Congratulations, you've beaten the meta!

Only problem is that a new set usually means a meta shift, even if it is only slight. There are surely gonna be some new, must answer threats in the new set and there are all sorts of factors that can Warp a meta.
For example T2 copter killed Sorcery speed removal (though I Saw an unusual amount of declarations and Planar outbursts playing today - maybe some people are preparing for the hypothetical new meta?)
So it's anyone's guess which deck will be top-dog after the update, it may even be a deck nobody's thought of yet...

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:29 am 
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How about Ux draw go? We got Censor, Essence Scatter, and Pull from Tomorrow. I'm pretty sure some people will try it just to annoy.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:00 am 
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How about Ux draw go? We got Censor, Essence Scatter, and Pull from Tomorrow. I'm pretty sure some people will try it just to annoy.


Modulo wrote:
Control decks gained a bunch of new tools and it remains to be seen which ones should be included. Currently it looks like Jeskai and Esper will be the more reliable iterations.


Censor is very situational. I could see it being included as a 1- or 2-of in some lists to tech against ceratin t3 plays, but not a full 3-of.
I believe Essence Scatter won't see much play beyond the first hype (we have Horribly Awry, which for us is basically Essence Scatter with upside, and it sees close to no play).
Pull from Tomorrow is hard to evaluate, but seems to be the new draw spell of choice (even better than Glimmer of Genius).

The card I believe many people are sleeping on is Commit // Memory, which is also awesome for these decks (Commit seems an incredibly flexible answer).

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:05 am 
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I may just be liking it for the wrong reasons, but at least I can lay claim to running Commit // Memory lol.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:06 am 
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Modulo wrote:
Pull from Tomorrow is hard to evaluate, but seems to be the new draw spell of choice (even better than Glimmer of Genius).


Not sold on it. 5 mana for +1 CA? Sure you're digging 3 deeper. Maybe it's a +2CA if you're pitching an extra land. It's late game gas, but do I want to completely tap out late game and leave myself vulnerable? At 8 land, you're gonna want to leave 3 open, so you're still only playing it for 5. At 10 land it get's much better (probably drawing 5 or 6 and pitching 1), so I guess it could be for long stalled control mirrors.

I agree with barney, blue is so **** boring.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:13 am 
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Modulo wrote:
Censor is very situational.


I disagree. The cycling makes it relevant in any matchup. If you don't have anything to counter, wait for a turn with 1 blue to spare and essentially reduce your minimum deck size by 1. let's you dig one deeper for an answer you need.

EDIT: Even in a 59-card deck you'd maybe still want those Censors, so this edit is better worded :)


Last edited by HarutoSato on Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:15 am 
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sixty4half wrote:
Modulo wrote:
Pull from Tomorrow is hard to evaluate, but seems to be the new draw spell of choice (even better than Glimmer of Genius).


Not sold on it. 5 mana for +1 CA? Sure you're digging 3 deeper. Maybe it's a +2CA if you're pitching an extra land. It's late game gas, but do I want to completely tap out late game and leave myself vulnerable? At 8 land, you're gonna want to leave 3 open, so you're still only playing it for 5. At 10 land it get's much better (probably drawing 5 or 6 and pitching 1), so I guess it could be for long stalled control mirrors.

I agree with barney, blue is so **** boring.


You know that Pull is an instant right? So you aren't tapping out to cast it, you are casting it EoT on your opponents turn, preferably on a turn where you didn't have to counterspell/remove anything to maximize how much mana you can sink into it.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:28 am 
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Yeah. Say for example you do it on your opponent's EoT, at worst you take away one of their counterspells for a draw spell and you're about to untap. Knowing Censor is a thing, probably wise to do all this and leave 1 mana open.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:55 am 
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Off of first glance, Censor seems like it'll be a more simplistic version of Negate. Making them pay extra isn't horrible and provides tempo play since they're overpaying for a card, and of course the cycling effect is gas when you absolutely need something else.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:56 am 
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Yeah. Say for example you do it on your opponent's EoT, at worst you take away one of their counterspells for a draw spell and you're about to untap. Knowing Censor is a thing, probably wise to do all this and leave 1 mana open.


Literally the worst scenario I could imagine would be the opponent flashing in Gearhulk in response and grabbing back a Confirm Suspicions to use on it.

But that assumes trying to spend all your mana on a single spell against a blue deck with 6+ untapped land on the table and cards in hand. Otherwise known as a terrible idea in the first place.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:28 am 
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sixty4half wrote:
Modulo wrote:
Pull from Tomorrow is hard to evaluate, but seems to be the new draw spell of choice (even better than Glimmer of Genius).


Not sold on it. 5 mana for +1 CA? Sure you're digging 3 deeper. Maybe it's a +2CA if you're pitching an extra land. It's late game gas, but do I want to completely tap out late game and leave myself vulnerable? At 8 land, you're gonna want to leave 3 open, so you're still only playing it for 5. At 10 land it get's much better (probably drawing 5 or 6 and pitching 1), so I guess it could be for long stalled control mirrors.

I agree with barney, blue is so **** boring.


You know that Pull is an instant right? So you aren't tapping out to cast it, you are casting it EoT on your opponents turn, preferably on a turn where you didn't have to counterspell/remove anything to maximize how much mana you can sink into it.


Nope, blanked on the instant. I usually catch that kind of ****. my bad.

I understood everything else, all you had to say was, It's an instant.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:01 am 
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I think the meta would shift from aggro to midrange-dominated. No easy 5-turn kills anymore with my Rb vampires/burn deck.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:05 am 
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It's maybe throwing in as a 2 of, maybe this can save you a T3 Gideon/Liliana. Or you could throw in two disperses to clear them later.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:11 am 
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HarutoSato wrote:
Modulo wrote:
Censor is very situational.


I disagree. The cycling makes it relevant in any matchup. If you don't have anything to counter, wait for a turn with 1 blue to spare and essentially reduce your minimum deck size by 1. let's you dig one deeper for an answer you need.

EDIT: Even in a 59-card deck you'd maybe still want those Censors, so this edit is better worded :)

This. If it didn't have cycle I would say it's booboo. With cycle for just :u: it makes your deck smaller and it makes aggro decks play around it or get countered. Slowing down the game is what this card is about.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:18 am 
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I have been thinking about how fast the meta has been and I think the meta is going to be even faster with red-x decks and vehicle decks storming down the gates. Early counters and removal will be more important than ever.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:32 pm 
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I've got to agree there, no more safe T2/T3 (if your on the play) against blue decks. Blue also gets an answer for T3 liliana or fevered visions which will help them not have so many auto-losses. So I think blue based control really should play Censor, even if only for the bluff value.

Draw-go control certainly gets a boost, that's for sure. If it's enough... We'll see...

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:10 pm 
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Yeah, I start to disagree with the post I made earlier, at least the first part (Still think Commit is awesome)

I was too dismissive about Censor earlier. The thing about Censor is that you don't want to run it in large quantities. As in, you'll never cast 3 Censors a game. If you run too many you'll end up cashing in some number of them as Reach through Mists; which is a card you're not interested in playing if you could play anything instead (like Telling Time, which is the card Censor mainly competes with for slots)
We still need to figure out how many Censors we want to run. 2 seems like a decent place to start.

Pull is instant speed and draws X cars for X+2 mana. The thing is it also discards a card - something I did not keep in mind when making the post earlier, and that greatly alters the evaluation for X=2 and X=3 (which are the crucial mana costs) For X=2, it is an overpriced Catalog instead of an Inspiration, for X=3 it is about on par with Glimmer instead of mostly better. The eval for X=4 and greater doesn't change much (you'll be able to pitch a land or bad card most of the time), but the changed eval for X=2 takes away a lot of flexibility here, as one of the modes has proven to be a lot worse than assumed.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:31 pm 
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Modulo wrote:
Yeah, I start to disagree with the post I made earlier, at least the first part (Still think Commit is awesome)

I was too dismissive about Censor earlier. The thing about Censor is that you don't want to run it in large quantities. As in, you'll never cast 3 Censors a game. If you run too many you'll end up cashing in some number of them as Reach through Mists; which is a card you're not interested in playing if you could play anything instead (like Telling Time, which is the card Censor mainly competes with for slots)
We still need to figure out how many Censors we want to run. 2 seems like a decent place to start.

Pull is instant speed and draws X cars for X+2 mana. The thing is it also discards a card - something I did not keep in mind when making the post earlier, and that greatly alters the evaluation for X=2 and X=3 (which are the crucial mana costs) For X=2, it is an overpriced Catalog instead of an Inspiration, for X=3 it is about on par with Glimmer instead of mostly better. The eval for X=4 and greater doesn't change much (you'll be able to pitch a land or bad card most of the time), but the changed eval for X=2 takes away a lot of flexibility here, as one of the modes has proven to be a lot worse than assumed.


Unless you get madness value out of the Discard (Temper?) or want a certain card in the yard (reanimator?). In straight up control, the card is only good if your packing a metric ton of mana, otherwise Glimmer is better.
I think it's playable as a 1-of, for example, in simic ramp if that deck really wants a mid-game refiller...

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:24 pm 
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Haven_pt wrote:
In straight up control, the card is only good if your packing a metric ton of mana, otherwise Glimmer is better.


You don't need to pack a metric ton of mana - a good control deck will get to that point where you could cast Pull for X=6 or 7 easily. The question is why you would do that and when it would get excessive.

Pull helps you attain inevitability faster than Glimmer as you can get a 3- or 4-for-1 out of the deal easily, which draws you into more answers (Sphinx's Revelation worked the same way). I agree that Glimmer is better early because it is more mana-efficient, but Pull does get better than Glimmer the longer the game goes.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:36 pm 
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Haven_pt wrote:
Modulo wrote:
Yeah, I start to disagree with the post I made earlier, at least the first part (Still think Commit is awesome)

I was too dismissive about Censor earlier. The thing about Censor is that you don't want to run it in large quantities. As in, you'll never cast 3 Censors a game. If you run too many you'll end up cashing in some number of them as Reach through Mists; which is a card you're not interested in playing if you could play anything instead (like Telling Time, which is the card Censor mainly competes with for slots)
We still need to figure out how many Censors we want to run. 2 seems like a decent place to start.

Pull is instant speed and draws X cars for X+2 mana. The thing is it also discards a card - something I did not keep in mind when making the post earlier, and that greatly alters the evaluation for X=2 and X=3 (which are the crucial mana costs) For X=2, it is an overpriced Catalog instead of an Inspiration, for X=3 it is about on par with Glimmer instead of mostly better. The eval for X=4 and greater doesn't change much (you'll be able to pitch a land or bad card most of the time), but the changed eval for X=2 takes away a lot of flexibility here, as one of the modes has proven to be a lot worse than assumed.


Unless you get madness value out of the Discard (Temper?) or want a certain card in the yard (reanimator?). In straight up control, the card is only good if your packing a metric ton of mana, otherwise Glimmer is better.
I think it's playable as a 1-of, for example, in simic ramp if that deck really wants a mid-game refiller...


Pull for X=4 is already a strictly better effect than Glimmer (ignoring the Energy). Is 6 a metric ton of mana?

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