In what backwards world do you live in that Torrential Gearhulk qualifies as "tech" and not an auto-include finisher for draw/go?

And if you think Pull from Tomorrow invalidates Glimmer of Genius, well I don't even know what to say. Especially as you're teching in (lol) Gearhulk.

Gearhulk is NEVER a finisher. It's always been used solely to flashback either Anguished Unmaking, Glimmer of Genius, and most preferably Confirm Suspicions. Disciple of the Ring is a more reliable finisher.

Why is it that me posting decklist gets you so angry these days?

And why did you call me a "mongoloid"?

Seems like splitting hairs on Gearhulk. He's finished me enough times when opps controlling the board and can counter my attempts at removal that I respect him in that capacity. He's no Disciple in that regard, probably more value as tech than finisher - but does double duty imho.

Call it whatever you want, just include it.

Also, Gem, my list is very different, but reasonable minds will differ.

Since we've got Pull from Tomorrow now do you think 27 lands is the correct way to go? Assuming the next tournament will be a control fest, making those land drops will be paramount. That and successfully casting your Pull from Tomorrow.

You'd need to go back to Pro Tour Dragon's Maze to see how decks were built to incorporate Sphinx's Revelation I guess.

Correct, 27 lands.

If we need to find room for the extra land the first thing we should be looking to cut would be our most inefficient win-con. Having Pull around means we can run a pretty tight win-con suite.

Edit: Some people even went as far as bumping up to 28 land during that meta, although I feel like that is excessive for us with the extra free mull.

I actually don't think this is quite correct; we already run a very small number of wincons. Unless our wincon has built-in inevitability (like Elixer of Immortality) we need to have a decent number to avoid the scenario that all of our wincons get answered and we sit there doing nothing. We need at least 5-6 wincons not counting Pull.

The problem with lowering your wincon count (lets say 4 wincons down to 3), even with Pull, is what if your wincons are in the bottom 10? Do any of Esper's wincons kill quick enough? Gideon and Gearhulk could still get chumped by board presence, and without an Elixir or something similar as Modulo suggested, the risk of dying to your own CA doesn't feel worth cutting down on those wincons. That's more the reason why Memory seemed like an option to me.

We can talk about how this all works in the best case scenario. I still remember Sphinx's Rev mirrors where it was a race to wincon (usually Elspeth) before you got milled out lol.

That is the thing though, with the correct setup of win-cons and counterspells we should rarely ever run into that situation, specifically because of Pull. Having Pull around not only allows us to more easily draw into a limited number of win-cons, it also keeps our hand fully stocked with ways in which to protect said win-cons.

Pull is the type of card that allows us to spend all day derping around answering our opponents stuff until we can cast it for a bunch and more often than not hit both our win-con and protection for it off the same cast. This is even more so the case with stuff like Disciple and Glyph Keeper

Pull is exactly the type of card that wants us to derp around until we have a million mana, EoT it for a metric ton, then drop a win-con with mana up for one or multiple counterspells to protect it.

I feel like running 4-5 win-cons could work in the right shell. *shrug* Especially if those win-cons are things that can potentially protect themselves without too much outside influence (Disciple, maybe even something like Glyph Keeper)

Not saying that every build could afford to do this, but I could definitely see it working with the correct shell.

Edit: Milling yourself is a fair point that I didn't consider, which is fair enough, especially since we don't have access to SB's. Commit//Memory is a thing though *shrug*

Memory does have an additional bonus in a wincon-light build. If you end up in a mirror and your opponent manages to have their answers line up, when the inevitable "wincon>removal>counter>counter" war begins, why accept defeat there? If they tap out for answers on their turn or when you swing, cast Memory unopposed, the game begins again lol. It's no Elixir of Mortality, but its a 1 of for a popular matchup, not the biggest waste of a card in most of the 60 either.

Memory will suck against aggro, and especially suck against burn. However, we're still packing 3 copies of Fatal Push when we meet a mirror or against mill, so it feels a little hypocritical to talk about wasted card slots.

I have been in a more troll-minded head space of late, I'm not just picking on you gem nor am I angry; see my various snarky gif posts. It's a phase, it'll pass. I guess I'm bored with the lack of NGA drama. As for mongoloid, it's just a word in common usage at work as a general insult with no reference intended to it's original meaning. I can't stop using it, even if it isn't very PC. Anyways, back on topic;

All this talk about building your deck around a rare in Duels

This isn't standard, we can't run 4 copies of Pull. Comparisons to SR era U/W control and being able to run a lower win con count are pointless.

We're in an aggro-centric meta, working with sub par mana: you run enough win cons to ensure you see them and enough draw to keep gas through the mid game where you can take over. I will run Pull for mirrors and extra late game dominance, but I won't be giving up Glimmer of Genius or win cons for it. I'll likely still run Telling Time too, but that will be the subject of testing.

One thing to note about Pull vs Sphinx's Rev, the lifegain was a MASSIVE part of why Rev ran so few wincons. Because when you're X'ing for life, using Elixir to reset yourself, aggro basically conceded there and then. No lifeloss, no milling, no other alt wincon, because Rev WAS your wincon in those matchups. You just had to stall them until you hit a point where they couldn't realistically kill you with what was left of their deck.

Pull + Memory don't quite make the dream a reality in Duels, especially since Memory isn't as one sided as Elixir. I'm with Sjok on the wincon situation though, 5 or 6 should be the standard.

Memory could combo with Watchers of the Dead in Mill decks, but not really in control decks. You're indeed still giving your opponent a full hand too.

Esper is so packed already. I keep wondering if its worth cutting down to 2 Glimmer to include the second copy of Pull. I'd be hard pressed to include the kitty statues, but let me know if you find a way!

I don't think Esper Mill is a thing, so no purring pillars here. Outside of Mill, the Watchers are situational at best.

This is exactly my plan.

I am not of the mind that Pull replaces Glimmer, and I personally think that an even split is the correct call.

Even as a 2 of Pull can pull a lot of weight (see what I did there). Ideally we want Glimmer around for the capability to dig for cheaper than we can with Pull, but Pull wins out later on when we have a bunch of extra mana to devote to it.

The thing about Pull is that they get considerably better the more of them we run. Not just in that it increases our chances of drawing into them, but that it increases our chances of drawing another off of the first. I will definitely concede that the lifegain on Sphinx's Rev was a big part of why it worked so well, but the other reason was that the card could easily chain into itself and the same is true of Pull.

That is a big part of the reason why they could get away with running so few win-cons as well, because even if you didn't hit one of your win-cons off of it there was a decent chance you would hit a second copy to try and continue the chain.

This definitely isn't nearly as reliable here, seeing as how we can at most run Pull as a 2 of, but I think alongside Glimmer it could still potentially work (willing to eat my words here if it doesn't work in testing).

At this point I feel like my Esper build is going to go from the current 3/3 with TT/Glimmer to 2/2/2 TT/Glimmer/Pull. Will see how that works out.

I kinda think this is the season where I'll start to run 1-of and 2-ofs more often. Like, I start to think that 3 Censor are too much since it won't always counter a spell even if you have it in your hand early, and lategame they're cyclers very often. So the question is: Why include 3 copies when the effect is kinda situational and you know you'll cycle them more often than not? Wouldn't 2 copies be more efficient?

Regarding Pull, I think I'm coming around to always playing 2 copies and cutting Glimmer in a cinch. Pulls worst case is an Inspiration, and it is a Jace's Ingenuity or Opportunity more often than not. Glimmer is better than Inspiration (not by too much though), about the same power level as Ingenuity, and worse than Opportunity. Going 2 Glimmer 2 Pull seems good.
EDIT: Wrong, Pull's worst-case is a 4-mana Catalog. Not exciting. We're not casting it for less than 5 mana (at which point it is very similar to Glimmer in terms of power). I'll revert to 3 Glimmer 1 Pull.

With that in mind, I'll take my (unfinished) Dimir list and apply these principles:

Esper Control
Creatures + Planeswalkers (5):
1 x Liliana, the Last Hope
1 x Disciple of the Ring
1 x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1 x Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 x Torrential Gearhulk

Instants+Sorceries (29):
3 x Fatal Push

2 x Blessed Alliance
2 x Censor
2 x Telling Time
3 x Grasp of Darkness

2 x Scatter to the Winds
3 x Spell Shrivel
2 x Anguished Unmaking

2 x Commit // Memory
3 x Glimmer of Genius
2 x Languish

2 x Confirm Suspicions

1 x Pull from Tomorrow

Lands (26)
1 x Plains
2 x Island
4 x Swamp
2 x Shambling Vent
2 x Sunken Hollow
2 x Praerie Stream
2 x Drowned Catacombs
2 x Isolated Chapel
2 x Glacial Fortress
4 x Evolving Wilds
3 x Aether Hub


By far not a finished list. I wouldn't be opposed to running a 27th land or a 6th wincon (or a Westvale Abbey, which could double down as both).

EDIT1: -1 Pull, +1 Glimmer
EDIT2: -1 Telling Time, +1 Censor

My only gripe about cutting a Glimmer for another Pull is that on Turn 4 I want to be drawing cards. Of course Pull can do that, but discarding a card in that spot is woat. The Gearhulk interaction is still there, and the is still relevant for Aether Hubs.

I feel iffy about only running Censor as a 1 of, which significantly reduces the chances we will have one early when we particularly need it. I feel like you could be safe dropping down to 2 TT and upping Censor to a 2 of. Would up the chances of getting a Censor in hand early when it buys the most tempo, and at worst in the matchups where having an early counterspell isn't really relevant at the very least you can cycle it (where it still functions as a less than TT).

After re-reading Pull I just feel stupid. It's still a new card so I don't have its effect memorized too well, but you don't want to cast Catalog for 4 in a control deck. Reverting to 3 Glimmer 1 Pull.

I'm very iffy about dropping TT. You don't want too many of them in your starting hand (or in your hand at any given time), but you're almost never unhappy to see one.
2 Censor is a number I could get behind if I found a good cut for it.