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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:00 am 
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mark777 wrote:

To be blunt if they want a good eternal format they have to make a good digital version of MTG that doesn't become insanely expensive to buy into later (MTGO) or a big mess (Duels). The easiest way to remove the barrier to older formats would be to have a F2P game that exactly mirrored paper magic but kept the digital store open forever and removed the player economy and second hand market.

Such a thing will never exist b/c it could feasibly compete with paper a little and that can never happen.


This is wrong in at least two ways.

Magic is a TCG. Removing the trade aspects of the game (i.e., keeping the store open forever, removing the secondary market) would go against its foundations, and would change Magic into something else. It would badly hurt the limited part of the game, which thrives on singles sales to constructed players. The lottery aspect of cracking boosters, while using the contents for some really intense gaming experience, is the biggest draw I ever experienced in a game.

I can't really argue that Magic is cheap, it's a really expensive hobby. But the online version is a LOT cheaper, both for Standard and Eternal play. So I can't really understand your statement about MTGO being insanely expensive to buy into later. If you compare it to paper, it's a bargain. Sure, expensive in absolute terms, but that is a feature o the game, not of MTGO. And the relative cheapness comes from the feature you propose to remove, the extremely fluid online secondary market.

And I'm almost sure the digital side is already competing with the paper side quite efectively. But then, I might be biased here, since I belong to the exact demographic MTGO is aimed at. For me, there is simply no competition. Paper is a thing of the past. Missed triggers, not being sure about a creature's power/toughness, energy counts, life count following, cheating ... all gone (well, there are some new ways of cheating involving friends).

I think Wizos are aiming for a coexistence between the two versions, with online aimed at the competitive amateurs and middle-aged professionals pressed for time, and paper at friendly home play, and high-level competition.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:30 am 
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Does MTGO keep selling packs of sets perpetually? I know that some sets are limited releases, but I'm not sure about all of them. Also, I understand that old sets come back periodically, but I'm not sure how often.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:13 am 
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Zlehtnoba wrote:
mark777 wrote:

To be blunt if they want a good eternal format they have to make a good digital version of MTG that doesn't become insanely expensive to buy into later (MTGO) or a big mess (Duels). The easiest way to remove the barrier to older formats would be to have a F2P game that exactly mirrored paper magic but kept the digital store open forever and removed the player economy and second hand market.

Such a thing will never exist b/c it could feasibly compete with paper a little and that can never happen.


This is wrong in at least two ways.

Magic is a TCG. Removing the trade aspects of the game (i.e., keeping the store open forever, removing the secondary market) would go against its foundations, and would change Magic into something else. It would badly hurt the limited part of the game, which thrives on singles sales to constructed players. The lottery aspect of cracking boosters, while using the contents for some really intense gaming experience, is the biggest draw I ever experienced in a game.

I understand that this is not something you want to play, but that does not mean it would be a bad thing. Or that it would hurt limited play. If you could feasibly play limited for free (which I have been able to do in some online f2p games so it's very possible to do it well), then people playing that don't have to rely on selling to constructed players. And the draw of opening packs is opinion-based.

I can't really argue that Magic is cheap, it's a really expensive hobby. But the online version is a LOT cheaper, both for Standard and Eternal play. So I can't really understand your statement about MTGO being insanely expensive to buy into later. If you compare it to paper, it's a bargain. Sure, expensive in absolute terms, but that is a feature o the game, not of MTGO. And the relative cheapness comes from the feature you propose to remove, the extremely fluid online secondary market.

Modern costs a lot to get into and stay competitive in, even on MTGO. There are people who would be interested in playing modern but aren't willing to pay the upfront cost to buy in and/or don't want to get stuck playing one deck forever. And again, MTG does not necessarily have to cost a ton of money to get into. That is a feature of the game RIGHT NOW.

And I'm almost sure the digital side is already competing with the paper side quite efectively. But then, I might be biased here, since I belong to the exact demographic MTGO is aimed at. For me, there is simply no competition. Paper is a thing of the past. Missed triggers, not being sure about a creature's power/toughness, energy counts, life count following, cheating ... all gone (well, there are some new ways of cheating involving friends).

Paper is still by far the biggest part of the market share, and it seems like they are doing this whole Magic Digital Next thing partially b/c they want to get into the digital market more.

I think Wizos are aiming for a coexistence between the two versions, with online aimed at the competitive amateurs and middle-aged professionals pressed for time, and paper at friendly home play, and high-level competition.


----------

TPmanW wrote:
Does MTGO keep selling packs of sets perpetually? I know that some sets are limited releases, but I'm not sure about all of them. Also, I understand that old sets come back periodically, but I'm not sure how often.


When I played it I think they did not.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:20 am 
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I thought some more about what you wrote, and now it seems to me that you were in fact complaining about how expensive the game is in general, not about MTGO in particular. Well, somebody has to pay for all the designers, programmers, artists, story writers, PR and management types that all put a ton of effort into making this game enjoyable.

I would argue that the parts of the game that make it, for me, the best game ever, just can't be done cheaply. I tried Heartstone. It was ugly and boring. Gameplay was totally trivial. I know some people do not agree, but for me, there is simply no competition.

I've only recently come to realize how much the settings of the game, i.e., the fantasy worlds and flavor, contribute to the whole game experience. I still disdain the actual story articles on the mothership, but the finely worked out environment is a real addition to the enjoyment of the game. And the depth of gameplay is just unbeleivable. Not so much in constructed, but for casual play and Limited. And this takes money. You can't do it for free. TANSTAAFL.

It is unfortunate that this makes Magic into a game that relatively few people can afford.

The problem with the free-to-play online version, in addition to the as-is paper version, is that it would cut too deply into the profit margins of the company. I don't want to guess whether it would make the continued excellence of the game impossible, but it is the nature of capitalism not to give up on existing profits. So, I guess I agree with your assessment that such a thing can never happen.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:04 am 
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MtG is an idea, and all ideas are naturally free because they can be replicated for free.




(If someone ain't got the message, there's a thing called proxies.)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:05 pm 
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Magic is not that expensive of a hobby. It's cheaper than Golf, or Skiing.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:53 pm 
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To be fair, a lot of people can't afford golf or skiing either.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:58 am 
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MtG is an idea, and all ideas are naturally free because they can be replicated for free.




(If someone ain't got the message, there's a thing called proxies.)


But for this to work, somebody else has to pay for the work the creators gave into the creation of ideas you are going to replicate for free. (I'm talking here about the finished, enjoyable product, not the raw, unrealized idea. Many people, some of them on this forum, can create a set. But to maintain and perpetuate the whole system is a completely different proposition.)

Also, ideas are not free. In other contexts, replicating other people's ideas can be actionable, unless you acknowledge intellectual property rights and/or pay royalties. (But proxying up your home games is fine.)

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