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 Post subject: Re: Mana as Written
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:54 pm 
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It probably isn't a good idea to do them by tile. That would ultimately result in a map providing waaaaay too much mana. Just use the entire map with a given value.

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 Post subject: Re: Mana as Written
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:01 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
It probably isn't a good idea to do them by tile. That would ultimately result in a map providing waaaaay too much mana. Just use the entire map with a given value.
As an example:

Island Cove Map
Image

Mana available:
3 Blue (Mostly water)
2 Green (Some lush vegetation)
1 White (Bits of civilization)
1 Black (A creepy cave)
0 Red (Ground is too saturated)

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 Post subject: Re: Mana as Written
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:06 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
It probably isn't a good idea to do them by tile. That would ultimately result in a map providing waaaaay too much mana. Just use the entire map with a given value.
True that, but still maybe use tiles to clarify how dense the swamp or the grasslands or the forest (and proximity) on the map in order to tap into this mana or that mana, or establish a mana bond.

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 Post subject: Re: Mana as Written
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:08 pm 
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BlackAion wrote:
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The part where Lord Dark redirects black mana to Kusho is also kind of bizarre. Like, fine, I believe he can do that, but why does that result in people on Kusho getting some strange addicition to magic? Rather than, you know, the island producing black mana?


It makes sense to me. Dark cast a spell that redirects and shapes black mana into Kusho in the form of curse that poisons the lands Mana pool. It is basically a "turn all lands into swamps in addition to whatever type of land it is" plus with a added effect.
That's probably the intention, but I wish Emperor's Fist had made that a bit clearer and distinguished the black mana intrusion from the curse a bit better. That plotline is left sort of open at the end, though, so maybe the third book will clarify that a bit more..?

BlackAion wrote:
Quote:
On the other hand, the magic of Tetsuo and some other people feels more like it's straight out of Dragon Ball Z. The fact that he can do pretty much anything that he wants as long as it's roughly in his colours doesn't exactly make him more fun to read about.


I honestly can't see why you have a problem with that. The trilogy makes it abundantly clear that the lands in madara are particularly potent. Which means in-universe they probably tap for or or Mana or more without side effects because Gameplay/Story Segregation. Furthermore, this man is no novice battlemage getting ready to journey across the land and therefore gain more lands. This man is a master who is not only well traveled IE very powerful but very, very good at swordmanship. A deadly combination if Baral is any indication.
The DBZ part bothers me to some extent because it gets pretty repetitive after a while and isn't really in line with what you'd normally expect magic in MtG to look like. He's just throwing around random energy bolts half the time, then some more random energy bolts that look different, but you don't really know what the difference between them is. The idea that his 'finishing move' is actually Doom Blade before that card even existed is charming, though. And I like the idea that he's a skilled swordsman who can channel spells through his sword, but he's just too good at everything. He's a great archer, he's a master swordsman with almost superhuman speed and reflexes who can go toe to toe with Wasitora (and yet he seems to be just as dangerous without his swords), he's the most powerful battle mage in the whole empire (despite other people having access to the same kind of abundant mana), he's great at controlling his emotions and accessing the meditation plane, he's a competent teacher, everyone looks up to him etc. Sure, he's the imperial champion for a reason, but he's really a bit over the top. And when he can do pretty much anything, every new ability he reveals could potentially cause plot holes like the one I mentioned. First we learn he can pass through walls, then he can suddenly teleport (even to a different island) which I'm sure woud have been super handy at earlier points where he doesn't do it. He also intuitively understands how to improvise a cure for Kei's parasite when Lord Magnus can't, he can suddenly open a portal to Lady Orca's cave, instantly understands her weak spot, blows up the cave and heads back. Oh, and that near-omnipotent Elder Dragon planeswalker who wants to kill him? He can totally hide from that one because magic. Admittedly, the last one is necessary because Bolas would just eat him at the end of book two otherwise, but if you look at everything together, it feels like a bit of a stretch. He still has to face Bolas and Dark, who are pretty overpowered, too, so at least there's still a bit of a challenge for him, and his attendants being in danger makes him vulnerable to some degree. Don't get me wrong, the trilogy is a really fun read and has lots of things to like, but I think Tetsuo's abilities could have been handled better. I think reducing the overall powerlevel of Tetsuo, Dark (who's similarly hypercompetent and can do almost everything) and Bolas would have done the books well.

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Last edited by Pavor Nocturnus on Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Mana as Written
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:09 pm 
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AzureShade wrote:
Barinellos wrote:
It probably isn't a good idea to do them by tile. That would ultimately result in a map providing waaaaay too much mana. Just use the entire map with a given value.
As an example:

Island Cove Map
Image

Mana available:
3 Blue (Mostly water)
2 Green (Some lush vegetation)
1 White (Bits of civilization)
1 Black (A creepy cave)
0 Red (Ground is too saturated)
That's... definitely close to the style I was hoping to put my finger on.

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 Post subject: Re: Mana as Written
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:15 pm 
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AzureShade wrote:
Barinellos wrote:
It probably isn't a good idea to do them by tile. That would ultimately result in a map providing waaaaay too much mana. Just use the entire map with a given value.
As an example:

Island Cove Map
[img]Map![/img]

Mana available:
3 Blue (Mostly water)
2 Green (Some lush vegetation)
1 White (Bits of civilization)
1 Black (A creepy cave)
0 Red (Ground is too saturated)
That's... definitely close to the style I was hoping to put my finger on.
Yeah, your mana allotment may vary because I'm not sure how you want to balance things, but I went with a decent pool of mana for the map that the players and maybe monsters could draw from before having to dig into their personal resources.

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 Post subject: Re: Mana as Written
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:20 pm 
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Here's another one that would be fun:

Fields!
Image

Mana Available:
2 White (It's a field after all!)
1 Blue (Apparently it's a rice patty?)
1 Green (Such healthy rice!)
2 Black (Healthy rice that the farm owner has been fertilizing with the corpses of murdered travelers!)
1 Red (That hearth pulls overtime burning hobo clothes.)

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magicpablo666 wrote:
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


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 Post subject: Re: Mana as Written
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:32 pm 
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BlackAion wrote:
Quote:
The part where Lord Dark redirects black mana to Kusho is also kind of bizarre. Like, fine, I believe he can do that, but why does that result in people on Kusho getting some strange addicition to magic? Rather than, you know, the island producing black mana?


It makes sense to me. Dark cast a spell that redirects and shapes black mana into Kusho in the form of curse that poisons the lands Mana pool. It is basically a "turn all lands into swamps in addition to whatever type of land it is" plus with a added effect.
That's probably the intention, but I wish Emperor's Fist had made that a bit clearer and distinguished the black mana intrusion from the curse a bit better. That plotline is left sort of open at the end, though, so maybe the third book will clarify that a bit more..?

BlackAion wrote:
Quote:
On the other hand, the magic of Tetsuo and some other people feels more like it's straight out of Dragon Ball Z. The fact that he can do pretty much anything that he wants as long as it's roughly in his colours doesn't exactly make him more fun to read about.


I honestly can't see why you have a problem with that. The trilogy makes it abundantly clear that the lands in madara are particularly potent. Which means in-universe they probably tap for or or Mana or more without side effects because Gameplay/Story Segregation. Furthermore, this man is no novice battlemage getting ready to journey across the land and therefore gain more lands. This man is a master who is not only well traveled IE very powerful but very, very good at swordmanship. A deadly combination if Baral is any indication.
The DBZ part bothers me to some extent because it gets pretty repetitive after a while and isn't really in line with what you'd normally expect magic in MtG to look like. He's just throwing around random energy bolts half the time, then some more random energy bolts that look different, but you don't really know what the difference between them is. The idea that his 'finishing move' is actually Doom Blade before that card even existed is charming, though. And I like the idea that he's a skilled swordsman who can channel spells through his sword, but he's just too good at everything. He's a great archer, he's a master swordsman with almost superhuman speed and reflexes who can go toe to toe with Wasitora (and yet he seems to be just as dangerous without his swords), he's the most powerful battle mage in the whole empire (despite other people having access to the same kind of abundant mana), he's great at controlling his emotions and accessing the meditation plane, he's a competent teacher, everyone looks up to him etc. Sure, he's the imperial champion for a reason, but he's really a bit over the top. And when he can do pretty much anything, every new ability he reveals could potentially cause plot holes like the one I mentioned. First we learn he can pass through walls, then he can suddenly teleport (even to a different island) which I'm sure woud have been super handy at earlier points where he doesn't do it. He also intuitively understands how to improvise a cure for Kei's parasite when Lord Magnus can't, he can suddenly open a portal to Lady Orca's cave, instantly understands her weak spot, blows up the cave and heads back. Oh, and that near-omnipotent Elder Dragon planeswalker who wants to kill him? He can totally hide from that one because magic. Admittedly, the last one is necessary because Bolas would just eat him at the end of book two otherwise, but if you look at everything together, it feels like a bit of a stretch. He still has to face Bolas and Dark, who are pretty overpowered, too, so at least there's still a bit of a challenge for him, and his attendants being in danger makes him vulnerable to some degree. Don't get me wrong, the trilogy is a really fun read and has lots of things to like, but I think Tetsuo's abilities could have been handled better. I think reducing the overall powerlevel of Tetsuo, Dark (who's similarly hypercompetent and can do almost everything) and Bolas would have done the books well.


I wouldn't say it's Doom Blade because he use it on
Spoiler
who is black mana-aligned.


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 Post subject: Re: Mana as Written
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:34 pm 
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Oops, you're right. There goes my headcanon...

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 Post subject: Re: Mana as Written
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:40 pm 
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Oops, you're right. There goes my headcanon...


From what I understand It's some form of black mana-aligned exile spell, odd considering black doesn't really do exile. Also never underestimate the power of energy bolts. I lost several games to one guy because he kept on burning me and every creature I put on the field.


Last edited by BlackAion on Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Mana as Written
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:47 pm 
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BlackAion wrote:
Oops, you're right. There goes my headcanon...


From what I understand It's some form of black mana-aligned exile spell, odd considering black doesn't really do exile.
Black has been known to dabble a bit...

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 Post subject: Re: Mana as Written
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:55 pm 
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AzureShade wrote:
1 Blue (Apparently it's a rice patty?)


Rice fields = swamp. It is a domesticated wetland, after all.

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 Post subject: Re: Mana as Written
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:58 pm 
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AzureShade wrote:
1 Blue (Apparently it's a rice patty?)


Rice fields = swamp. It is a domesticated wetland, after all.
That's partially factored into the Black mana allotment. The 1 Blue was because there was more water on hand than normal.

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You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


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 Post subject: Re: Mana as Written
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:01 pm 
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AzureShade wrote:
1 Blue (Apparently it's a rice patty?)


Rice fields = swamp. It is a domesticated wetland, after all.
Pretty sure Jace senses blue mana in the rice paddy on Kamigawa in AoA, though. But maybe different rice fields are different. I could buy it being :u:, :g: or :b:. Actually, it would make for a cool tri-colour land.

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 Post subject: Re: Mana as Written
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:28 pm 
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AzureShade wrote:
1 Blue (Apparently it's a rice patty?)


Rice fields = swamp. It is a domesticated wetland, after all.
Pretty sure Jace senses blue mana in the rice paddy on Kamigawa in AoA, though. But maybe different rice fields are different. I could buy it being :u:, :g: or :b:. Actually, it would make for a cool tri-colour land.

Cranberry bogs tap for black according to Jodah. So u/b and potentially even white wouldn't be out of possibility.
Also, might want to think about what colorless might be generated.

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 Post subject: Re: Mana as Written
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:49 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:

Rice fields = swamp. It is a domesticated wetland, after all.
Pretty sure Jace senses blue mana in the rice paddy on Kamigawa in AoA, though. But maybe different rice fields are different. I could buy it being :u:, :g: or :b:. Actually, it would make for a cool tri-colour land.

Cranberry bogs tap for black according to Jodah. So u/b and potentially even white wouldn't be out of possibility.
Also, might want to think about what colorless might be generated.


Blasted Lands or lands that got blown up and glassed up one too many times.


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 Post subject: Re: Mana as Written
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:10 pm 
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Many colourless lands seem to be buildings or populated areas. Guess there is a subtle degree of difference between them and lands.

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 Post subject: Re: Mana as Written
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:14 pm 
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Many colourless lands seem to be buildings or populated areas. Guess there is a subtle degree of difference between them and lands.

seems chiefly to be either associated with specific buildings akin to churches or capitol buildings, or, my personal favorite theory, it's the wide open plazas and expanses that generate . Tight clusters of buildings don't have the openness to let form.

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 Post subject: Re: Mana as Written
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:22 pm 
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True, plains were chosen because they were open to the sun.

Same applies to those large, open spaced buildings like Azorius courtrooms.

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 Post subject: Re: Mana as Written
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:02 am 
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Barinellos wrote:
Many colourless lands seem to be buildings or populated areas. Guess there is a subtle degree of difference between them and lands.

seems chiefly to be either associated with specific buildings akin to churches or capitol buildings, or, my personal favorite theory, it's the wide open plazas and expanses that generate . Tight clusters of buildings don't have the openness to let form.
Wow, that's some nitty-gritty stuff I was hoping existed somewhere, while that's theory (I'd buy it, twice) the cranberry bogs someone said are good insight, and what about rice fields comes off as or ? I'm not that savvy with agriculture and such.

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