Mana as Written

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Planechaser

Post subject: Mana as Written

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:07 am

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Joined: Apr 03, 2014
Posts: 815

Besides the stories "Mana Bonds" (or was it "The Mana Bond"?) and both Kiora-centric stories on Theros, what Uncharted Realms or novels or e-novellas or even flavor text contain some spot-on depictions of any of the following? Lands as mana sources, mana bonds, mana, (esp if color is specified) and/or gathering/channeling mana for use with spellcasting? My curiosity of course points back to my goals in pinning down a "realistic" mana system for 5th edition D&D.

While refashioning the spell points variant is ideal, I can admit that implementing an almost exact approximation of "land drops, mana-ramping, and tempo" from the game is almost impossible, but I hope to glean some insight into how it is verbally depicted in-lore (besides the fact that besides Nissa, the entirety of the Gatewatch have magical powers akin to superpowers that rarely SHOW their use of mana, it's still hardly given much attention, Kiora being one of the more recent uses of this description of mana coming into play by a spellcaster of any kind. Even Nissa's depictions usually name-drop mana as an obvious intended side-effect of her use of leylines) so that a player character's spellcasting includes flavorful mention and almost mechanical guidance towards the relationship between grasslands/coasts/swamps/mountains/forests, white/blue/black/red/green mana, specific spells, and a spellcaster's inclination to utilise said land/colored mana to cast related spells. I can't hold everyone's hands and do the character creation and roleplaying for everyone, but I want a system that disallows a player from just saying "My character is a White/Blue Zendikari Goblin Warlock who casts Conjure Fey Creature." Or "My character is a 5-color Zendikari Vampire Paladin who casts whatever I want." I much prefer something realistic along the lines of "I am a White/Blue Kor Wizard-Lull Mage who used to be a White Kor Wizard but took a big step towards Blue when I learned a few necessary sleep-inducing/calming spells pivotal to my role as a lull mage". However, I can't expect everyone will tailor their character so elegantly, so including player decisions that decide how much mana, what color(s) and geographical sources could really assist.

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Heliana: Cleric :planeswalker:

Tsuchigo: Orochi Jade Mage :planeswalker:

Frida Wandern: Culinomancer :planeswalker:

Aran: Drow Archer Wizard :planeswalker:

Zilin Kast: Half-Elf Druid :planeswalker:

Valin Drom: Egomage :planeswalker:

Raff: Crimson Mage :planeswalker:

Chrysanos: Leonin Wildmage :planeswalker:

Whulsi: Loxodon Healer :planeswalker:

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Barinellos

Post subject: Re: Mana as Written

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:30 am

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Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 12284

The gathering dark
The eternal ice
One of the stories from one of the anthologies featuring Barrin
I believe maybe Bloodlines, though its been a while
Agents of Artifice
The purifying fire

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Pavor Nocturnus

Post subject: Re: Mana as Written

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:12 am

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Joined: Nov 15, 2013
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Location: Roaming Dominaria

Planechaser wrote:

the entirety of the Gatewatch have magical powers akin to superpowers that rarely SHOW their use of mana

Amen to that.
The fact that they write them like X-Men characters rather than proper MtG spellcasters is one of the many things that bother me about the Gatewatch (and many Neowalkers in general). I absolutely agree that Kiora is a fantastic example of the opposite. She even tags and summons creatures! Jace used to do a lot more summoning and proper mana-into-spell-channelling in Agents of Artifice, Chandra at least summoned an elemental in the webcomics and even Gideon had a bit of hieromancy to detain people. At least the writers remembered the shades that Liliana used to summon as spies in AoA, so that and her raising zombies is fairly consistent. Some modern depictions of planeswalking also bother me, namely those where they gloss over the Blind Eternities entirely and just have one plane melt away and turn into another. I think Doug tends to write it that way sometimes. I understand that they don't want to waste space on exhausting descriptions of planeswalking every time, but half a sentence to acknowledge a 'walker crossing the Blind Eternities should be the minimum.

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BlackAion

Post subject: Re: Mana as Written

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:55 pm

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Joined: Jun 30, 2016
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On the subject of the Jodah Saga, is mana burn still a thing in-universe. I would think so, but every world we visit have at least a basic understanding of the use of magic so it never shows up.

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Barinellos

Post subject: Re: Mana as Written

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:20 pm

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Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 12284

BlackAion wrote:

On the subject of the Jodah Saga, is mana burn still a thing in-universe. I would think so, but every world we visit have at least a basic understanding of the use of magic so it never shows up.

They got rid of it in the game, so I doubt it.

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Pavor Nocturnus

Post subject: Re: Mana as Written

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:39 pm

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The fact that they dropped mana burn in the game doesn't exactly make it likely to come up in the story again. But on the other hand, there's no in-universe reason for why it shouldn't exist anymore (other than retconning and inconsistent worldbuilding). The Mending can't excuse everything they want it to, and the problems it was there to fix had nothing to do with the nature of mana. Personally, I would be pretty miffed if they explicitly stated that mana burn is gone.

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"Enchant me with your tale-telling. Tell about Tree, Grass, River, and Wind.
Tell why Truth must fight with Falsehood, and why Truth will always win."
—Love Song of Night and Day

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AzureShade

Post subject: Re: Mana as Written

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:02 pm

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Posts: 7801

Pavor Nocturnus wrote:

Personally, I would be pretty miffed if they explicitly stated that mana burn is gone.

Yeah, but honestly there was very little reason for it to be there in the first place. It's a byproduct of building a creative narrative around the rules for "what happens if I tap something that gives me more mana than I need?" In a different world (that wouldn't really work gameplay-wise in Magic), the answer to the question would have been "it just makes whatever spell you are trying to cast that much stronger" instead of "the excess mana causes some feedback and hurts you." And if Wizards had never printed cards like Mana Flare or things that give you more than one mana at a time, it would never ever come up. Again, the only reason we have stories that model it is because it was a game rule at the time. It's also why in at lot of Pre-Rev books, characters and monsters tend to demonstrate summoning sickness. The authors were just modeling the story after the game.

The game no longer has mana burn so there really is no reason to reference it or bring it up in any current or future stories. If someone (like you) were at a Story Panel and asked Kelly Diggs if mana burn was a thing that they would reference some day, it would be weirder for him to be coy about it and be all like "we're not saying it's gone, but don't expect to see it come up...." instead of just saying "Nope, Mending fixed it."

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You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"

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RavenoftheBlack

Post subject: Re: Mana as Written

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:35 pm

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Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 11083

There's a section in The Brothers' War where Feldon talks to Loran and they somewhat stumble on the secret of mana (the secret, not the SNES game) as they examine the Golgothian Sylex, which says to "fill with memories of the land" (Grubb 305).

AzureShade wrote:

Whereas I disagree. Personally, I liked mana burn as a game mechanic (it made people be more careful using things like Sol Ring, Black Lotus, and Dark Ritual) and it does make sense to me from a narrative standpoint, as well. After all, if you put too much helium into a balloon, the balloon will burst (admittedly, it won't hurt you, but if you're using something dangerous like pure mana, it certainly could). Also from a narrative standpoint, I like that mana burn emphasizes a process of precision rather than one of abandon. Rather than being able to pour as much power as you want into a spell, you need to use a degree of control. If you want a stronger result, learn a stronger spell, or get a spell, like Fireball, that is designed to have power poured into it. I actually think that is a lot to be done with that concept in-story.

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Pavor Nocturnus

Post subject: Re: Mana as Written

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:38 pm

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Joined: Nov 15, 2013
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Sure, it's really just the byproduct of an obsolete rule, but gameplay and story segregation exists in many other areas as well, so they might as well have it stick around in-universe and call it exactly that: gameplay and story segregation. I don't actively demand to see more stories where mana burn is referenced, I'd be okay with them just tip-toing around it and never bringing up a situation where it would matter. Summoning sickness hasn't been explicitly referenced in a long time (I think), but I'd argue it's a lot more fuzzy than mana burn anyway. Summoning sickness has something to do with phases and turns, which is very mechanical, and magic duels in stories don't usually make it clear whose 'turn' it is, and there's no guideline for how long a 'turn' or a 'phase' etc. is supposed to be in real life. It could be seconds, or it could be minutes/hours/days or even years depending on the scale you imagine for your game. But mana burn is a feature of a thing that's at the core of both the game and the story and is a constant throughout the multiverse, namely mana itself.

There probably was little reason for it to be there, but now it's an established element of Magic's cosmology and I expect that cosmology to stick to its own rules. As I said, "the Mending fixed it" isn't an excuse I would accept. The Mending had a very specific purpose that had nothing to do with mana. It's not like mana burn was abolished in the rules right after Future Sight anyway. And there's so little consistency and continuity in the portrayal of anything these days, I'm happy for every bit of lore that works and behaves as it used to. Personally, I would love it if mana burn was referenced in the stories again, just once every three years or so. If they write a story about someone getting turned into the Fallen, I'll send them flowers, because I'll know they care to get things straight again. It's little quirks and corner cases like mana burn that make the magic in Magic feel unique and magical. Heck, Creative should be happy they've got brilliant guidelines for how magic works in Jeff Grubb's books (and some other sources) and just stick to them.

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"Enchant me with your tale-telling. Tell about Tree, Grass, River, and Wind.
Tell why Truth must fight with Falsehood, and why Truth will always win."
—Love Song of Night and Day

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AzureShade

Post subject: Re: Mana as Written

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:42 pm

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Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 7801

I'm pretty sure the concept of Mana Burn would destroy a character like Chandra whose whole shtick is unleashing fire with wild abandon. She's too flighty to focus on her mana-to-spell ratios and it'd be extra weird if Wizards shrugged it off as her just mostly knowing

spells to get around it.

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Pavor Nocturnus

Post subject: Re: Mana as Written

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:53 pm

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Joined: Nov 15, 2013
Posts: 2388
Location: Roaming Dominaria

AzureShade wrote:

I'm pretty sure the concept of Mana Burn would destroy a character like Chandra

Good riddance.

But seriously though, I don't think getting your mana to spell ratio right is that hard. The magic Chandra uses feels pretty flexible and malleable, so maybe most of her spells just adapt to how much mana is used on them. Okay, that sounds a lot like :x:

spells, but ' :x:

spells vs. fixed mana cost' is probably another instance of story and game segregation. And if all else fails, she could still cast another cheap burn spell right after the first if she had excess mana left in her system.

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"Enchant me with your tale-telling. Tell about Tree, Grass, River, and Wind.
Tell why Truth must fight with Falsehood, and why Truth will always win."
—Love Song of Night and Day

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AzureShade

Post subject: Re: Mana as Written

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:07 pm

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Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 7801

Pavor Nocturnus wrote:

And if all else fails, she could still cast another cheap burn spell right after the first if she had excess mana left in her system.

Right....and so mana burn doesn't matter.

Like, in what instance (story-wise) do you see Mana Burn coming up where the answer isn't just...cast a smaller spell right after the big one?

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RavenoftheBlack

Post subject: Re: Mana as Written

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:37 pm

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Joined: Sep 22, 2013
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AzureShade wrote:

Pavor Nocturnus wrote:

And if all else fails, she could still cast another cheap burn spell right after the first if she had excess mana left in her system.

Right....and so mana burn doesn't matter.

Like, in what instance (story-wise) do you see Mana Burn coming up where the answer isn't just...cast a smaller spell right after the big one?

Spoiler

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Pavor Nocturnus

Post subject: Re: Mana as Written

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:43 pm

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AzureShade wrote:

Pavor Nocturnus wrote:

And if all else fails, she could still cast another cheap burn spell right after the first if she had excess mana left in her system.

Right....and so mana burn doesn't matter.

"Doesn't matter" isn't the same as "it's okay to pretend it doesn't exist anymore without in-universe explanation". As I said, they can tip-toe around it and just not bring it up for all I care. Bringing it up again would make me happy, but I don't actively demand it.

AzureShade wrote:

Like, in what instance (story-wise) do you see Mana Burn coming up where the answer isn't just...cast a smaller spell right after the big one?

Candra is exactly the kind of character who does throw around spells in quick succession (or could, if necessary), and casting another spell with white mana instead is what Jodah does when he fails to open the gate to Phyrexia. But to answer your question, mana burn could come up when

- an unexperienced mage simply doesn't know what they're doing and screw up a spell
- someone draws mana from a land whose colour has changed since (like Jodah does when he gets mana burned before then casting a white spell)
- someone has messed with the local mana (e.g. by diverting mana lines from a nearby land) and it produces a different colour now that the character can't handle
- a character gets knocked out/injured/distracted while preparing a spell, so now they've got mana in their system but can't mentally finish their spell (like what happens to Jodah in The Shattered Alliance when he gets stabbed in the throat while preparing a spell)
- a planeswalker is on an unfamiliar plane with weird, volatile or overabundant mana like Zendikar or Shandalar
- a character cast a spell or curse on an opponent so they lose control over their mana pool

Of course, your mileage may vary; some of these situations could be resolved by just casting another spell, but that doesn't mean characters won't get mana burned a little before they manage to cast a spell. Including mana burn in a story doesn't mean someone has to die from it or turn into a zombie, but it would definitely serve to create some drama and suspense (like it does in the Jodah examples I brought up).

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"Enchant me with your tale-telling. Tell about Tree, Grass, River, and Wind.
Tell why Truth must fight with Falsehood, and why Truth will always win."
—Love Song of Night and Day

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AzureShade

Post subject: Re: Mana as Written

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:48 pm

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RavenoftheBlack wrote:

AzureShade wrote:

Pavor Nocturnus wrote:

And if all else fails, she could still cast another cheap burn spell right after the first if she had excess mana left in her system.

Right....and so mana burn doesn't matter.

Like, in what instance (story-wise) do you see Mana Burn coming up where the answer isn't just...cast a smaller spell right after the big one?

Spoiler

Those "sentinels" were designed by a madman and it was silly of Dorna to not just cast the biggest spell with the mana she gathered to break the lock.

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RavenoftheBlack

Post subject: Re: Mana as Written

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:55 pm

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AzureShade wrote:

Those "sentinels" were designed by a madman and it was silly of Dorna to not just cast the biggest spell with the mana she gathered to break the lock.

Hey, I didn't say it was a flawless example. But you asked "in what instance (story-wise) do you see Mana Burn coming up where the answer isn't just...cast a smaller spell right after the big one?"

Admittedly, I guess Dorna cast a small spell first and then plans on a bigger one, so I didn't meet the specific criteria anyway. But hey, it was just an example.

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AzureShade

Post subject: Re: Mana as Written

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:01 pm

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Joined: Sep 22, 2013
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Pavor Nocturnus wrote:

Of course, your mileage may vary; some of these situations could be resolved by just casting another spell, but that doesn't mean characters won't get mana burned a little before they manage to cast a spell. Including mana burn in a story doesn't mean someone has to die from it or turn into a zombie, but it would definitely serve to create some drama and suspense (like it does in the Jodah examples I brought up).

I guess my next question would be, using Wednesday's UR as an example, wherein Jace had to maintain a somewhat massive illusion of a fleet of skyships while also playing mental quarterback for a small group of pirate raiders, and suddenly either piloting a fast-moving flagship or casting some other spell that gave Depla the use of his sight when she was inadvertently blinded.....would mana burn have made that story more tense? Would it have been something additive to the story that would have helped with the pacing in some way or added another layer to the drama of the moment? How many lines about a ticking mana burn clock because Jace was interrupted while trying to concentrate on five different things would have been helpful to the story?

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Pavor Nocturnus

Post subject: Re: Mana as Written

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:28 pm

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AzureShade wrote:

Pavor Nocturnus wrote:

Well, I haven't read the story in question and I'm not going to, but generally speaking, if the writers would have wanted to include mana burn in the scene you describe, they would have composed the entire scene with that in mind, rather than starting without it and then trying to squeeze it in as an afterthought. But if you're going to write a dramatic action scene in which Jace has to concentrate on many different things simultaneously, why shouldn't mana burn be one of those things? To me it sounds like that would have been a great addition. You could have Jace need to improvise spells in between juggling other things in order to release excess mana and then have him come up with clever ways to use those spells in the fight on the fly. I mean, the mana burn scenes in the Ice Age trilogy are really thrilling and dramatic and do feel like a ticking clock. The scene in The Shattered Alliance where Jodah has his throat slit by Jaya and is suffering mana burn and bleeding to death at the same time is probably my favourite scene in that novel. It's really well written and the resolution is just brilliant. So yes, mana burn can make for amazing dramatic scenes.

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"Enchant me with your tale-telling. Tell about Tree, Grass, River, and Wind.
Tell why Truth must fight with Falsehood, and why Truth will always win."
—Love Song of Night and Day

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Heartless Hidetsugu

Post subject: Re: Mana as Written

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:25 pm

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Ice Age books are great examples of gameplay mechanics and storyline integration. I think the legend rule even gets a nod in The Eternal Ice.

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Planechaser

Post subject: Re: Mana as Written

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:41 pm

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Joined: Apr 03, 2014
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Okay, another bit to inquire about. Especially relevant since for my story/flavor-based purposes, I'm likely going to shy away from Planeswalker PCs more often than not. For non-planeswalkers, how do mana bonds and "gathering/channeling mana" work with distance? As in, yes, planeswalkers get a pass for not drawing attention to any "bond quests" by virtue of them happening on planes whose visitations my never be explored in the walker's story, though as I said, most neowalkers, esp of the Gatewatch, seem to rely on some unnamed inner source of mana akin to creatures tapping for mana instead of a land to use their INBORN "superpowers". Not to mention, can't say for sure if typical planes' mages have 'bond quests' like Kephalai.

"The Mana Bond" was written in a way just to showcase sort of how mana bonds work generally, so I doubt it works too much differently on other planes. In said story, the master clarifies that a spellcaster MUST form a bond with a land before he/she can ever access its mana, though unless it's because she's an animist and/or it was circumvented due to accessing the leylines, not specific lands, Nissa recently felt Innistrad's mana without prior bonding. So, can a mage draw on mana temporarily from a land he/she is presently located near, or only a land he/she has established a bond to.

My most recent stab at a mana system involves the line of thinking that perhaps a spellcaster PC can use a move/bonus/full-round action to draw mana POINTS temporarily that aren't regained after a rest from terrain spaces immediately nearby, but establishing a bond with a land (aka a big enough plot of spaces of identical terrain type) when the character's "color identity" matches that terrain type, provides a normal renewable spell slot affiliated with that color(s), and perhaps the action associated with making the bond (and gaining the spell slot) could have a limit of uses to match how many spell slots they should have at that level. Problem there though is differing spell levels for spell slots, AND differing number of spell slots for different classes at different levels.

_________________

Milov Lask: Philomancer :planeswalker:

Heliana: Cleric :planeswalker:

Tsuchigo: Orochi Jade Mage :planeswalker:

Frida Wandern: Culinomancer :planeswalker:

Aran: Drow Archer Wizard :planeswalker:

Zilin Kast: Half-Elf Druid :planeswalker:

Valin Drom: Egomage :planeswalker:

Raff: Crimson Mage :planeswalker:

Chrysanos: Leonin Wildmage :planeswalker:

Whulsi: Loxodon Healer :planeswalker:

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