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Opinion Poll: Discard Rule and Vanilla Land
I prefer the "more than one card" discard rule. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I prefer the "turn-1" discard rule. 55%  55%  [ 6 ]
I prefer a different discard rule. (Please explain.) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I prefer the Vanilla Redux. 18%  18%  [ 2 ]
I prefer Vanilla Land as we played it this season. 27%  27%  [ 3 ]
I prefer Vanilla Land, but with some changes. (Please explain.) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 11
Total voters : 7
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Golgari_Spy
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:18 pm 
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CommanderJim wrote:
I don't see how Golgari_Spy beats me. If I try to race, I lose (because of the 1/1 Guildmage), so I just never attack.

If Golgari_Spy attacks with Abyssal Persecutor, I trade, Reanimate my demon and win.
If Golgari_Spy waits for Greater Gargadon to come down, I cast Chainer's Edict to make him sacrifice the Shadow Guildmage. Then Golgari_Spy has to sacrifice the demon to the Gargadon (to get rid of the demon), and then I cast Chainer's Edict again and the Gargadon is sacrificed.

i probably just cast shadow guildmage asap, suspend gargadon asap, never sacrifice the persecutor (counterintuitive, but as i see it you can't win with it on the battlefield), and then it becomes a staring contest so i may have overthought things and it's probably a draw (which is what you have)

like i said, matchup math is hard

Edacade wrote:
CommanderJim wrote:
I don't see how Golgari_Spy beats me. If I try to race, I lose (because of the 1/1 Guildmage), so I just never attack.

If Golgari_Spy attacks with Abyssal Persecutor, I trade, Reanimate my demon and win.
If Golgari_Spy waits for Greater Gargadon to come down, I cast Chainer's Edict to make him sacrifice the Shadow Guildmage. Then Golgari_Spy has to sacrifice the demon to the Gargadon (to get rid of the demon), and then I cast Chainer's Edict again and the Gargadon is sacrificed.


I'm kind of wondering if Golgari misread the Shadow Guildmage and missed the "you control" part of the bounce ability. Because if it could bounce an opponent's stuff then he would get a 6-0 win against both you and I.

i am aware of the "you control" part and i want to see what your line to victory is, because i don't see one for you and i might be missing something obvious again

i am also curious about my matches vs. zlehtnoba and valkir


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Edacade
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:29 pm 
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I'm having an off day today, apparently. :face: I forgot to consider lines of play where you played the Guildmage first.

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CommanderJim
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:35 pm 
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I forgot to consider what happens if you get all four of your permanents on the board, Golgari_Spy, but it looks like that also becomes a stand-off.

You attack with Greater Gargadon and I go down to 11.
I cast Chainer's Edict and you sacrifice your demon (losing either of your other two creatures prevents you from winning the game). Then I Reanimate your demon, and go down to 7.
Now I can double-block your 9/7 with two 6/6's to kill it.

So still 2-2.

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thatmarkguy
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:35 pm 
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He pings you to death with shadow guildmage?


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CommanderJim
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:13 pm 
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thatmarkguy wrote:
He pings you to death with shadow guildmage?

Huh, I totally thought that only hit creatures. That changes things. So if I wait to cast Edict twice in one turn, I still lose.

My other option is to cast Chainer's Edict on turn 4. If Golgari_Spy sacrifices Abyssal Persecutor, then I start attacking with my own and eventually flashback Edict targeting myself before Shadow Guildmage can ping me to death. If GS sacrifices the Guildmage, then this math still applies, except I can't flashback until turn 12.

So... sounds like 1-4 in Golgari_Spy's favor.

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Golgari_Spy
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:27 pm 
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yeah, the pinging hitting players is surprisingly relevant in a format in which both players can't lose (along with the fact that guildmage can solve my inability to win problem whenever i want)

Edacade wrote:
I'm having an off day today, apparently. :face: I forgot to consider lines of play where you played the Guildmage first.

it happens to all of us (especially me)


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POSValkir
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:09 pm 
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lol, I had three seconds to build my deck and I ignored my " well, Mental Misstep beats the fake lotus deck" thought...how well it would have done...

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thatmarkguy
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:02 pm 
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I was mildly surprised nobody ran Metamorphosis / Burnt Offering, or something with Emerge (though new discardrule does wipe out Distended Mindbender). I expected some people would use their Persecutor as a sacrificial launchpad into a high mana thing, but it didn't happen. Black Lotus and Metamorphosis could lead into Novablast Wurm or Elderscale Wurm among other things.


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Edacade
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:35 pm 
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I was too lazy to actually look for good stuff, so I went with two 1-mana cards I felt were pretty decent. :V

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CommanderJim
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:41 am 
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Collector Results
Rank|Name|Total Score|Round 1|Round 2|Round 3|Round 4
1|thatmarkguy|10.33|3.33|2.50|4.50
2|Zlehtnoba|9.83|2.33|2.50|5.00
3|mark777|9.50|5.00|0.00|4.50
4|POSValkir|9.00|4.00|3.50|1.50
5|Edacade|8.83|1.33|5.00|2.50
6|CommanderJim|8.50|4.33|4.17|0.00
7|Golgari_Spy|6.17|0.00|3.17|3.00

Winner: Zlehtnoba
You may suggest a new alternate format to be added to next season's poll.
Current Format Pool

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mark777
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:54 am 
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No one else decided to go for the nuke the field option?

I did a lot better than I thought I was going to do.


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Zlehtnoba
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:43 am 
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Golgari_Spy wrote:
i am also curious about my matches vs. zlehtnoba and valkir


The way I see it, I Lignify your Guildmage ASAP, on my turn two. If you attack with Demon, I trade Demons and win with Mayor. If you sacrifice the Demon and the Guildmage to the Gargadon, it comes down on turn eight (seven?), which is way too late, since I have a few Wolf tokens around by that time. If you attack with Gargadon, I use Demon and a Wolf to kill it, and again Mayor wins eventually. So the best play for you is to not let me kill my Demon on blocking duty, which makes the match a draw.

Keeping your Demon around is also a draw, since we can only kill Demons in combat. I simply ignore your Demon, and kill mine on Gargadon if you let me.

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Zlehtnoba
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:06 am 
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thatmarkguy wrote:
I was mildly surprised nobody ran Metamorphosis / Burnt Offering, or something with Emerge (though new discardrule does wipe out Distended Mindbender). I expected some people would use their Persecutor as a sacrificial launchpad into a high mana thing, but it didn't happen. Black Lotus and Metamorphosis could lead into Novablast Wurm or Elderscale Wurm among other things.


It was a given that everybody would have a removal spell, to get rid of their Demon. So using Demon to ramp into a big scary monster is not attractive if they can simply first kill their Demon on blocking duty, and then use the removal on your threat. It would need a special threat to win that way.

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thatmarkguy
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:37 am 
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Zlehtnoba wrote:
Golgari_Spy wrote:
i am also curious about my matches vs. zlehtnoba and valkir


The way I see it, I Lignify your Guildmage ASAP, on my turn two. If you attack with Demon, I trade Demons and win with Mayor. If you sacrifice the Demon and the Guildmage to the Gargadon, it comes down on turn eight (seven?), which is way too late, since I have a few Wolf tokens around by that time. If you attack with Gargadon, I use Demon and a Wolf to kill it, and again Mayor wins eventually. So the best play for you is to not let me kill my Demon on blocking duty, which makes the match a draw.

Keeping your Demon around is also a draw, since we can only kill Demons in combat. I simply ignore your Demon, and kill mine on Gargadon if you let me.


There's a possible problem in your Lignify Guildmage on your T2 plan: on the play GS could play guildmage on t1, do nothing on t2, then when you try to Lignify the Guildmage, respond by activating guildmage blue ability to put himself back on top of library, wasting your Lignify as he gets redrawn and recast the next turn. If you don't Lignify he just pings you at eot.


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Golgari_Spy
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:24 am 
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yeah, that is why i had it as a win on the play, i just put it on top of my library, recast it, ping you to 0, then put demon on top of my library so i can win (gargadon isn't necessary)

if you lignify your demon mayor gets pinged to death and i can attack with demon enough times and eventually put it on top of my library so i can win, so that doesn't work either

on the draw you can lignify my guildmage though and i can't do a thing about it, and then we have staring demons


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Zlehtnoba
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:37 am 
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Yes, sorry about that. I'll correct the score, should be 4-1 for you.

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Golgari_Spy
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:14 am 
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i believe that mark777 draws CJ both ways

as mark777 loses by doing nothing or casting defiler asap, he actually attacks with his persecutor, and CJ is forced to block with his eventually as otherwise CJ ends up at 2 life, mark casts defiler of souls, and edict can't do a thing to stop mark777 from winning, and from the forced block defiler is never cast until reanimate is but CJ won't cast reanimate as it results in him losing, thus it's a draw

i'm curious if the attacking persecutor line affects other matchup results


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thatmarkguy
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:32 am 
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TFW you're in 1st place headed into the final round, place 3rd in the final round, and that drops you all the way to 3rd in the season because the two players who outscored you were the ones just behind you in standings.


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Zlehtnoba
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:22 am 
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This was the most interesting round by far that I've played. Not so much deck construction, as all the play permutations.

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CommanderJim
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:01 pm 
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Golgari_Spy wrote:
i believe that mark777 draws CJ both ways

as mark777 loses by doing nothing or casting defiler asap, he actually attacks with his persecutor, and CJ is forced to block with his eventually as otherwise CJ ends up at 2 life, mark casts defiler of souls, and edict can't do a thing to stop mark777 from winning, and from the forced block defiler is never cast until reanimate is but CJ won't cast reanimate as it results in him losing, thus it's a draw

i'm curious if the attacking persecutor line affects other matchup results

Yeah. I guess I should've played Animate Dead.

There are also a lot of lines of play in my matchup against POSValkir. I'll need to go through that again.

Between these 3CM matchups and AER previews, I have not been getting a lot of work done this week. :P

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