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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:28 pm 
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Zerris wrote:
...My opponent said that I have to copy the spell immediately before passing priority to the opponent. I said that since my original spell is still on the stack, I can target it. I'm 99% sure I'm right but need some confirmation. If anyone can quote something from the rules to support this, i'd greatly appreciate it.


Your opponent is probably correct, depending on the exact verbal language and shortcuts involved.

Specifically, resolving the spell goes as follows:

1) Spell is declared, targets are declared, mana is paid, etc. Do all the stuffs, spell goes on the stack. You still have priority.

2) You pass priority to the opponent if you have no responses (to your own spell).

3) Your opponent passes priority back, if they have no responses.

4) Spell resolves.

This is from 608.1. Each time all players pass in succession, the spell or ability on top of the stack resolves.


The key here is that you cannot take any actions after step 2) unless your opponent had a response. If your opponent also passes priority, the spell has already resolved, and it's too late to try to copy it. Also, as a standard shortcut, step 2) is always assumed after a spell goes on the stack unless you explicitly state otherwise. You can tell, because otherwise you'd have to say "...pass priority" after every single action you take in a game, and clearly nobody does that.

As a result, if you want to copy (or counter, or whatever else) your own spell, you must state "Hold Priority" in some form, cast your first spell, and then cast your second spell in response - at which point, you verbally release priority and your opponent gets a chance to respond to the copy. If they have no responses, you regain priority and unless you state otherwise are again assumed to be passing it back at which point they get a chance to respond to the original spell.

Here's an example from an SCG event, where a player holds priority to counter his own spell.


Trash reading comp, brah.

New rules question...

When I play a sorcery or instant and my opponent plays an instant in response, can I use Geistblast from my graveyard as a response and copy my original spell?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:36 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:05 pm 
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Why were you playing Geistblast in standard...


Booster draft.



And that was zerriss shortest post ever


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:57 pm 
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... Why were you in U/R, both EMN and SOI does not support either archtype.

I mean you're a cool guy, but if you're playing Geistblast then clearly red wasn't as open as you thought it was.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:05 pm 
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... Why were you in U/R, both EMN and SOI does not support either archtype.

I mean you're a cool guy, but if you're playing Geistblast then clearly red wasn't as open as you thought it was.

He did it to annoy you obviously.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:49 am 
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Red seemed wide open and it was SOI. I'm not very good at draft. I don't know which colours to draft. I should consult you before my next draft probably


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:14 am 
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Red seemed wide open and it was SOI. I'm not very good at draft. I don't know which colours to draft. I should consult you before my next draft probably

or not and you know, actually enjoy yourself


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:46 am 
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your avatar is too dressed


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:36 pm 
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your avatar is too dressed

she's the Plain Doll from Bloodborne


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:42 pm 
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your avatar is too dressed

she's the Plain Doll from Bloodborne

no1curr

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:25 pm 
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Lol, jeez... that would make a decent sig line, I love it


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:38 am 
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divinevert wrote:
New rules question...

When I play a sorcery or instant and my opponent plays an instant in response, can I use Geistblast from my graveyard as a response and copy my original spell?

Yes.

So if you cast burn, and the opponent countered it, you could still copy your burn spell and that copy would resolve before the counter resolves.

But if you cast a burn spell and then try to copy it with Geistblast and then the original spell gets countered in response to THAT, then Geistblast fizzles.

That's not right. If you copy a spell, the copy is unrelated to the original and would be on the stack separately regardless on if the original was targeted by a counter or not.
Doesn't matter on the order really since it works same way both ways, just gotta make sure the counter is still on the stack and unresolved when doing it after the counter is cast.


It actually does matter on the order. If you cast a Burn, and pass priority AND your opponent does not counter it, You do not get to play Geistblast from the GY because you already passed priority and your opponent passed as well, so your spell just resolves without you getting priority back.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:07 am 
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A few questions:

Suppose my opponent attacks with Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger and an Elvish Visionary. I have a Thalia, Heretic Cathar on the board and Blessed Alliance in hand. Can I block the Elvish Visionary with Thalia and then cast Blessed Alliance after first strike damage to force him to sacrifice Ulamog?

Is there a first strike damage phase if there are no first strike creatures in combat?

Suppose I attack my opponent with Shivan Dragon. He's representing Path to Exile. I want to pump for as much damage as possible, he wants to wait till I finish pumping before using Path. Can I decline to pump, ask him if he's going to do something, and if he does nothing then I pump by one point, ask him if he's going to do something, etc until I decide to stop pumping?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:40 am 
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Banedon wrote:
A few questions:

Suppose my opponent attacks with Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger and an Elvish Visionary. I have a Thalia, Heretic Cathar on the board and Blessed Alliance in hand. Can I block the Elvish Visionary with Thalia and then cast Blessed Alliance after first strike damage to force him to sacrifice Ulamog?

Yes.

Is there a first strike damage phase if there are no first strike creatures in combat?

Suppose I attack my opponent with Shivan Dragon. He's representing Path to Exile. I want to pump for as much damage as possible, he wants to wait till I finish pumping before using Path. Can I decline to pump, ask him if he's going to do something, and if he does nothing then I pump by one point, ask him if he's going to do something, etc until I decide to stop pumping?

When you attack with the dragon, you can pump when you have priority; after the pump triggers goes on the stack, then he can choose to respond or nah. So basically, what I'm saying is that you can ask him after each pump trigger since it's legal, but ofcourse I wouldn't risk it if I expect my opponent to have removal in that scenario.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:05 pm 
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Banedon wrote:
A few questions:

Suppose I attack my opponent with Shivan Dragon. He's representing Path to Exile. I want to pump for as much damage as possible, he wants to wait till I finish pumping before using Path. Can I decline to pump, ask him if he's going to do something, and if he does nothing then I pump by one point


You have priority to pump. You pass priority. If he passes priority back without any responses, damage resolves and you do not have another opportunity to pump before you hit him for 5.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:05 pm 
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Basically what they are saying is that no, there is no first-strike damage phase if there are no first-strikers in the combat.

In the specific situation you quote, Vert is exactly correct. Once you have passed priority you do not get priority back before the spell resolves unless your opponent responds.

If this were not true instant-speed removal would be basically useless in most situations.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:10 pm 
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divinevert wrote:
Banedon wrote:
A few questions:

Suppose I attack my opponent with Shivan Dragon. He's representing Path to Exile. I want to pump for as much damage as possible, he wants to wait till I finish pumping before using Path. Can I decline to pump, ask him if he's going to do something, and if he does nothing then I pump by one point


You have priority to pump. You pass priority. If he passes priority back without any responses, damage resolves and you do not have another opportunity to pump before you hit him for 5.


I might be reading this wrong, but this is how it works: (I'm just elaborating, I agree completely with Vert here.)

You have declared attackers, and we're in the blocking phase and for simplicity, your opponents board is clear and he's only holding 1 spell, Path to Exile.
You have priority. You decide to pump for 1. You pass priority.
Opponent decides to pass priority. The "pump" ability resolves.
You have priority. You decide to pump for 1. You pass priority.
Rinse, repeat.

There is no point where you can deny him casting Path to Exile before combat-damage happens.

This is because, regardless of how many times you decide to pump, it works like I described above. If you do NOT pump, and you pass priority, (the stack is empty) your opponent can decide to pass priority as well and you advance to the next step. The next step is combat damage. Combat damage is assigned and damage is dealt without any player receiving priority.

See https://www.twoevils.org/html/mtg/turn.html for a full breakdown of the 5 phases and many steps.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:11 am 
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So basically, I can't decline to pump first, I have to pump at least once ... and then I can keep asking him if he wants to Path. Thanks.

If I have Gisela on the board and call Bruna out via Nahiri ult, will I get Brisela at the end of turn or will Bruna return to my hand?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:12 am 
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I believe in paper magic you get to choose the order of how things happen and you simply order it so Gisela's trigger resolves first and then Nahiri's whiffs.
On duels? Who knows.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:25 am 
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I believe in paper magic you get to choose the order of how things happen and you simply order it so Gisela's trigger resolves first and then Nahiri's whiffs.
On duels? Who knows.


This isn't really "Magic advice" because you're dead on with that, you stack triggers, but in Duels, it's the order the cards enter the battlefield is the order they resolve.

So if you played Gisela before Nahiri, it's trigger would resolve first.

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