It is currently Thu Nov 28, 2024 10:41 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:46 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 23, 2013
Posts: 8248
Identity: Spambot
Preferred Pronoun Set: 0, 1
Oops. Didn't see the whole 3 weeks thing.

_________________
Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:45 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 1095
It has to do with "if" statements. I don't entirely remember how it goes, let's see if I can logic it back up.

If only one person had green eyes, they would see brown eyes on everyone else, hence would kill themselves that night, and the brown eyed people would kill themselves one day later.

If two people had green eyes, they would see the brown eyes on everyone else, except one other person. If that one other person didn't kill themselves that night, then each of the green-eyed people would know that they were the only green-eyed people. (The brown-eyed people wouldn't know what their eye color was yet, because they each saw two green-eyed people). The two green-eyed people would kill themselves on the second night, then the brown-eyed people on the third night.

If three people had green eyes, they each see two other people with green eyes and the rest with brown eyes (each of the brown-eyed people sees three people with green eyes). When, from the perspective of each of the people with green eyes, the other two green-eyed people don't kill themselves on the second night, then all three of the green-eyed people know that they are the three green-eyed people, and thus kill themselves on the third night. The remaining brown-eyed people kill themselves on the next night.

And repeat.

In this case, the number of green and brown-eyed people are the same, each of the people sees N other people with an eye color that isn't theirs, and N-1 people with an eye color that is theirs. After the (N-1)'th night, when the N-1 other people with shared eye color don't kill themselves, each person in the tribe realizes that they are the Nth person of their own eye color from their perspective. They all kill themselves on the Nth night, which is the 21st night in the riddle.

While Yarium had the right answer, I believe, 42 total tribefolk (killing themselves on the 21st night), it has nothing to do with the explorer being present, nor the explorer's own eye color.

They could have saved themselves from such a terrible fate by not counting the number of people with each eye color.

_________________
PbP Characters
Umiki800080SDSS
Navu'ai008000KotS
ParkunFFD700Ixen

PbP Games
—DDN—The Mines of MadnessCurrent Map

RPG Personality


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:05 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 1095
The same logic is usable on trappedslider's variant of the same puzzle.

If only one person had blue eyes, they would see everyone else with brown and leave the first night, with the brown-eyed people leaving the next night.

If two people had blue eyes, they would see one person with blue eyes not leave on the first night, everyone else would have brown, and so they would be the other person with blue. The two blue-eyed people would leave on the second night and everyone else on the third.

Since 100 people have blue eyes, they would all leave on the hundredth night, because each blue-eyed person would see 99 other people with blue eyes not leave on the 99th night.

However, in trappedslider's case, no one knows if the Guru saw someone with brown eyes, so each person with brown eyes was waiting to see if they were the 101-st person with blue eyes. They weren't, since all the blue-eyed people left on the 100th night.

Then also on the 100th night, each of the brown-eyed people knows that they see only brown-eyed other people (and the Guru, but she doesn't matter), but they don't know that each of the other brown-eyed people sees only brown-eyed other people.

But each of the brown-eyed people knows that each of the other brown-eyed people must see at least 98 other brown-eyed people. Therefore, each of the other brown-eyed people has implicitly stated "I see someone with brown eyes," which is a truism (each of the brown-eyed people that can be seen by any one brown-eyed person has seen someone with brown eyes by virtue of having seen 98 others with brown eyes). Since all of the brown-eyed people implicitly stated that on the first day, they also all leave on the 100th night. Being perfect logicians, they are able to use inductive, as well as deductive reasoning.

The Guru cannot deduce her own eye color, since no information about "green eyes" even existing has ever been given to her (no one implicitly or explicitly said they saw someone with "green eyes" and no one else actually has green eyes). She knows that she is the only one with her own eye color, but does not know what color it eyes (other than "not blue" and "not brown") The Guru remains behind for over 800 million more days until she can narrow down her own eye color from the approximately 24-bit color palette of the visible spectrum.

_________________
PbP Characters
Umiki800080SDSS
Navu'ai008000KotS
ParkunFFD700Ixen

PbP Games
—DDN—The Mines of MadnessCurrent Map

RPG Personality


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:56 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 29, 2013
Posts: 1035
Aw. You're too kind.

Edit: Do those ***** translate into English? I can't figure out what they are supposed to mean. . .

_________________
Existential Hero: Train Without Rails


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:21 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 19, 2013
Posts: 2156
Identity: Otter
Preferred Pronoun Set: Otterself

_________________
Image


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:30 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 05, 2013
Posts: 8
x-1 people with green eyes might only see x-2 other people with green eyes, what can you expect from these x-1 people to be thinking? Just reduce each number in your previous question by one to receive your answer together with the next question. These mostly non-existing smaller groups of 2, 3, 4, ... people with green eyes couldn't be expected to know there's >1, >2, >3, ... people with green eyes until that's officially revealed on day 1, day 2, day 3, ... by that explorer or logical thinking. It's fascinating how that explorer's redundant information secretly affects this network of non-existing smaller groups of people that sends more and more signals to existing tribe members whenever nobody dies. Although there's an unspoken consensus between existing tribe members that plenty of people have green eyes, nothing happens until it's officially revealed that >1 people have green eyes.

the only possible solution if you thought everyone dies at the end of day 21


the only possible solution if you thought everyone dies at the end of day 22


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:19 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 31, 2013
Posts: 7350
Location: Newfoundland
The problem with this problem is that it presumes that all people think in exactly the same way and come to the same conclusions.

_________________
Check me out on YouTube


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:32 pm 
Offline
Conqueror of Eldangard
User avatar

Joined: Sep 25, 2013
Posts: 14139
Location: Kamloops, BC
Identity: Male
Sorry for being too vague, "some of them" = "more than one" and there's no suicide in the nights before the last one.

Okay, I just checked my opening post and I'm really positive there's nothing else that might need further explication.

That rules out my first idea, where the explorer's confirmation of both brown and green eyes would lead at least one person to commit suicide. If you were the only person with brown/green eyes, saw that nobody else had them, and had confirmation from the explorer that both colours were present you would have to conclude that you were the only person with the brown/green color eyes. Following that logic, if you knew exactly how many other tribesmen had eyes of a particular colour you could use the number of days that nobody comes forward to figure out what you own eye colour was. Are there exactly 21 people of each eye colour on the island perhaps?
Yes, I realize I'm a bit behind the thread, but don't spoil it for me.

_________________
Cato wrote:
CotW is a method for ranking cards in increasing order of printability.

*"To YMTC it up" means to design cards that have value mostly from a design perspective. i.e. you would put them in a case under glass in your living room and visitors could remark upon the wonderful design principles, with nobody ever worring if the cards are annoying/pointless/confusing in actual play

TPrizesW
TPortfolioW


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group