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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:04 pm 
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Phyrexia is on a rampage this set

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:07 pm 
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It is freaking cool to actually see a human wearing the Crying Mask of Yawgmoth as a mask...

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:55 pm 
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Explanations!

Quote:
thornthallid asked:
Whilst not all legends should be a top-down design, would you agree that not making Ludevic top-down was a mistake?

markrosewater said:
Here’s the problem. We made the Partner mechanic which required a lot of mechanical structure. That meant the cards were designed bottom up and not top down.

The cards had to be legendary because of the requirement to be commanders, so we had two options: Make up completely new characters or try to see if we could find existing characters that hadn’t yet gotten a card that made some sense with the existing designs.

Previous Commander products told us players really like when we reference existing characters, so we set out to try and match characters to the designed cards. This is tricky as you don’t have the fine control you have with top down designs.

Should we have saved any characters until we could have done them as top down designs? Maybe. There’s a strong case that Ludevic might have been one in that category.

But I imagine a parallel world where we chose to do less existing characters so we could save them for a future top down design, and people are complaining that we didn’t have enough “known” legendary characters.

“Why haven’t you done __________ ?” Is a very common question here. If we had saved Ludevic for a future time, that might be many years from now.

Designing Magic is hard because so many people want different things and trying to juggle them all so you make as many people as happy as you can is difficult.

I hear that many of you Imagined Ludevic as being a top down design and maybe with 20/20 hindsight, that would have been the correct call, but we didn’t have that hindsight when we’re making things.

Players had said they wanted a Ludevic card and we had an opportunity to make one, and we knew another chance was most likely years away, so we took the opportunity.

The reason I constantly seek feedback is so we can learn. If we did something differently than you wanted us to, tell me, so I can get a sense when we made a mistake (or did something correct) and can adjust accordingly in the future.

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You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:23 pm 
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So, let me see if I'm getting this right. They wanted to bring back existing characters, because their research says people like that. But they wanted to do a one-time mechanic that they've never tried before and therefore had no pre-existing resonance with fans, so that had to build those cards bottom-up, and slap existing characters' names on them and hope they fit.

This reminds me of the story of a Baker in the small town of Fablesville. The town was small, and the Baker mostly sold bread and other basic food items, but once a month, he would make a special treat that he would sell at a cheap price. The most popular of these were his doughnuts. Even in a town that small, people were lined up out the door and nearly around the block for his doughnuts. But the Baker wanted to try other things, so it was months and months before her returned to the doughnuts. Unfortunately, the Baker didn't want to make the same doughnuts he had made before. He knew the townsfolk loved them, but he wanted to try a new recipe. So, he did. He tried a completely new recipe, but, to please the townspeople, he still called them doughnuts, and put them in the same shape. Not surprisingly, the townsfolk didn't like them, and never again lined up around the block for the Baker's pastries.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:26 pm 
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Basically they did the math and it was less annoying to hear people complain about cards that didn't quite fit their beloved characters than it was to hear people whine about why didn't their beloved characters get printed this time around, knowing that it'd be years of that whining before they got around to it next time.

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magicpablo666 wrote:
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:33 pm 
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AzureShade wrote:
Basically they did the math and it was less annoying to hear people complain about cards that didn't quite fit their beloved characters than it was to hear people whine about why didn't their beloved characters get printed this time around, knowing that it'd be years of that whining before they got around to it next time.

Fair enough. My issue is not that they printed legends that could have (perhaps should have) been better, it's that they built themselves into the problem by pushing a mechanic that they didn't need to push. It just rubs me the wrong way when people make it seem like they only had two bad choices when they are the ones who created the false dilemma in the first place.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:40 pm 
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That baker sounds great, doing what you want is the best thing in life.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 12:32 am 
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Huh... loooooooooot of Conspiracy in these decks.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:25 am 
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I think Magus of the Will, Parting Thoughts and Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa are the top three flavour wins in C16. Honourable mentions go to Orzhov Advokist for using the term advokist in a card name. Mmmmaybe also to Ludevic for being Ludevic. Heck, Parting Thoughts is the second card this year together with Accursed Witch // Infectious Curse that would go into my Leshrac theme deck if I had one :D. If they continue at that rate, maybe it'll become a worthwhile endeavour to build one eventually. A Leshrac commander PW would be a huge step in the right direction... ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:45 am 
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So, I finally thought of what a lot of this release makes me think of.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:32 am 
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I'm pretty sure someone here was asking about this card?

Quote:
rtrt227 asked:
Yesterday was my birthday, bit I guess you didn't see my ask. Do you know anything about Massacre Girl from Ravnica? Or any of the characters from there who haven't gotten cards yet?

markrosewater said:
Massacre Girl almost made it on a card once but the card had to change enough that it didn’t fit her character.

Happy Belated Birthday!

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magicpablo666 wrote:
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:44 am 
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Well, it didn't stop them from making Emmara Tandris.
/zing

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:32 am 
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Well, it's good to know they at least considered giving her a card, so she might still be at the back of someone's head at WotC and be printed eventually when the opportunity arises.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:24 am 
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There have been at least two attempts to make a Massacre Girl card so far. We'll get there eventually! Unless we lose interest.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:04 am 
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he has spoken

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:21 am 
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WotC_Ethan wrote:
There have been at least two attempts to make a Massacre Girl card so far. We'll get there eventually! Unless we lose interest.

Any chance you can tell us what card Massacre Girl turned into when it was changed? I'm guessing that the second card may not have seen print so you may not have extra stories about that.

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magicpablo666 wrote:
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:08 am 
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Id imagine one of the cards with her in the flavor from rtr.

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I never take anytihng Lily says seriously, except for when I take it personally. Then it's personal.
WotC_Ethan wrote:
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:55 am 
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LilyStorm wrote:
Id imagine one of the cards with her in the flavor from rtr.
Well my go-to assumption was always Thrill-Kill Assassin, but that card would have had to really change to go from a legendary rare to an uncommon. Rakdos Ringleader and Rix Maadi Guildmage don't seem "Massacre-y" enough. Carnage Gladiator seems like something that could have started out life as a cool legendary creature, but got changed enough to get a type change and some new art.

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magicpablo666 wrote:
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:44 am 
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AzureShade wrote:
WotC_Ethan wrote:
There have been at least two attempts to make a Massacre Girl card so far. We'll get there eventually! Unless we lose interest.

Any chance you can tell us what card Massacre Girl turned into when it was changed? I'm guessing that the second card may not have seen print so you may not have extra stories about that.



I believe that the cards that game designers initially labeled as Massacre Girl in the database became Exava and Vial Smasher eventually. It's an important detail that most of their card texts also changed.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:48 am 
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I would have guessed Exava (due to her position versus the lead-in text) but not so much Vial Smasher. It's very cool that this kind of stuff can get known! Thanks Ethan!

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