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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:16 pm 
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I won a boat load of games with my Phantom Nantuko Armadillo Cloak deck.

That doesn't make the deck good.

Heck, I've won games with vanilla 2/2 bears.dec. That doesn't suddenly make 2/2 bears a great deck.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:57 pm 
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I will say this for DotP as a training aid for IRL Magic:

Playing Duels regularly may not make you a better Constructed player, but I believe wholeheartedly that it will make you a better Limited player. Let me invite the band out to start tooting horns, but I'd say in the last 15 Limited Events I've played in (Draft/Sealed/Pre-Release Sealed) I've failed to top 4 twice (not top 8, top 4).

In Duels land, you become so accustomed to playing with and building decks with such nonsense cards that I believe it translates exceptionally well to the land of IRL Limited. There have been times where I've gone months between playing IRL (usually from one pre-release to the next) and Duels has kept me sharp...enough to flourish. (now, my success between hiatuses isn't ALL Duels as I usually read up on what's going on IRL even if I'm not actually playing...but Duels certainly doesn't hurt)

I think Duels helps more than hurts new Magic players...sure, once they make the jump, there are some creases to be ironed out...but Duels does a commendable job of bringing a new person up to speed, comfortably and at their own pace...while still remaining fun for "veterans". Now if only the wardens of this great product weren't such...you know what I'm going to say...

Actually, I'm curious...
How is learning Magic the old fashioned way these days? The rulebook wasn't 195 pages long when I first played Magic.

I mean, I started back in the day (Revised) when my sister saw a couple of our friends playing it and thought it would be fun for us to play. We played a couple games, she lost interest, I was hooked. The first games we played we thought you had to pay creatures' casting costs to attack so it was slow as hell. (A friend and I started playing back in the day and thought the exact same thing)Once it was pointed out that we didn't have to do that the game became more or less intuitive.(We had a Mtg only shop in nearby city. Hard to believe in MS, I know and learned from there) Things that we learned along the way (such as using a Royal Assassin to kill a Prodigal Sorcerer after it taps to use it's ability does not stop the ability from happening) we just learned by playing with people that had been playing longer than us. (Making them tap so you could do the execution was another fun thing)

So... Naturally those issues wouldn't come up with someone learning Magic via Duels, but I was so very young back then, so I'm curious; Is DotP, with it's simplification and rules omissions, better than learning from scratch and/or being taught by people who already know how the game works?
How does Magic: Online teach players?

MTGO is terrible for teaching, imo, due to it's lousy interface. Duels gives players the basics and shows them how to play. But like you and your sister, some get hooked, others go on to other things. I think DoTP is to mainly find those that get hooked so they can be players for a long time. Nothing wrong with that at all as I see it

EDIT:
LegenVD wrote:
There is one minor thing that Duels teaches new players incorrectly, which is taking mulligans.

I've also seen in comments in a Magic video wherein a viewer declared another viewer's analysis invalid citing "you can't save mana, you have to cast a spell immediately after you tap the lands for it".
As in, didn't know the mana pool was a thing. That's a DotP staple right there.

Actually in watching Spellslingers, you can fairly easily pick out the people that only play Duels because of comments like that.


They may be old time players who haven't seen it in a while and still think Mana burn is valid.

When I really started playing Magic(I had 2 original decks in a drawer for a year and a half before starting it. I picked them up as a curiosity while comic book shopping) Banding was around. The mechanic was dismissed due to being hard for players to understand.(I looked it up and yes, this was the reason it was taken out). I got married for 11 years and left Magic by the wayside. I was disappointed in no banding as I really liked the mechanic.

You couldn't go by the small rulebook that came in those packs. Most people, myself included, tend to plunge in and try to figure it out by themselves. Now we have DoTP and it can do a great job as an introductory course PLUS give you the skills to move into the rest. This is where we come in.

New players breathe new life into a game. If they encounter abuse for their deck size, choice of card or whatever, they'll feel that this isn't a community they want to be a part of. They're PEOPLE, not robots on that other end and they will learn as they go along without raging at them. Make a friendly suggestion and not call them an idiot for playing..let's say ...Voice of the Provinces. I see this kind of abuse constantly at these players from what I called "math nazis". I'm sorry if you guys took offense, but really the only way to take offense at such a term is if it actually applies to you. If it doesn't apply to you, it doesn't bother you one bit, does it?

Point is, be nice to new players and welcome into the community. If not for the game, do it for YOURSELF. What do I mean? I'll use math:

New Players=more content+more interest= more options for you.

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If You get an aggro player to stop attacking, you've got the match won.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:11 pm 
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"I see this kind of abuse constantly at these players from what I called "math nazis". I'm sorry if you guys took offense, but really the only way to take offense at such a term is if it actually applies to you. If it doesn't apply to you, it doesn't bother you one bit, does it?"

You do realize how utterly hopeless you sound here, right? What if you swapped Nazis for a different N word? Do I need to be that particular shade to qualify for offensiveness benefits?

Who is actually abusing new people around here anyways? If someone asks me what I think about Voice of the Provinces and I say "that card is terrible", is that abuse? When that person fires back that I need to "expand my mind" into the world of "alternative thinking" and I tell them "not really bruh, the card is over-costed for what it does, a.k.a. turrible" is THAT abuse? Comparing hard math/numbers to your claims of "just try it, really, it works" is abuse?

Seriously dude.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:50 pm 
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"I see this kind of abuse constantly at these players from what I called "math nazis". I'm sorry if you guys took offense, but really the only way to take offense at such a term is if it actually applies to you. If it doesn't apply to you, it doesn't bother you one bit, does it?"

You do realize how utterly hopeless you sound here, right? What if you swapped Nazis for a different N word? Do I need to be that particular shade to qualify for offensiveness benefits?

Who is actually abusing new people around here anyways? If someone asks me what I think about Voice of the Provinces and I say "that card is terrible", is that abuse? When that person fires back that I need to "expand my mind" into the world of "alternative thinking" and I tell them "not really bruh, the card is over-costed for what it does, a.k.a. turrible" is THAT abuse? Comparing hard math/numbers to your claims of "just try it, really, it works" is abuse?

Seriously dude.

Did the "other N" word oppress people and forbid other ideologies? No, and as a black man, I take offense at you comparing my race to Nazis even as some misguided point.. What should I expect from someone using Colonel Sanders as an avatar but someone who ties a race with one of the most murderous regimes in history?

Take your racist ass somewhere else.

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If You get an aggro player to stop attacking, you've got the match won.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:50 pm 
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"I see this kind of abuse constantly at these players from what I called "math nazis". I'm sorry if you guys took offense, but really the only way to take offense at such a term is if it actually applies to you. If it doesn't apply to you, it doesn't bother you one bit, does it?"

You do realize how utterly hopeless you sound here, right? What if you swapped Nazis for a different N word? Do I need to be that particular shade to qualify for offensiveness benefits?

Who is actually abusing new people around here anyways? If someone asks me what I think about Voice of the Provinces and I say "that card is terrible", is that abuse? When that person fires back that I need to "expand my mind" into the world of "alternative thinking" and I tell them "not really bruh, the card is over-costed for what it does, a.k.a. turrible" is THAT abuse? Comparing hard math/numbers to your claims of "just try it, really, it works" is abuse?

Seriously dude.

Did the "other N" word oppress people and forbid other ideologies? No, and as a black man, I take offense at you comparing my race to Nazis even as some misguided point.. What should I expect from someone using Colonel Sanders as an avatar but someone who ties a race with one of the most murderous regimes in history?

Take your racist ass somewhere else.

Edit: Yes suh! I'll shine dos' boots for ya, massah! Cans I has some fried chicken? Please don' whip me for dis here double post! I bes good from now on.

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The Best defense is one where the attacker breaks himself upon it, allowing you to counterattack them into oblivion.

If You get an aggro player to stop attacking, you've got the match won.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:43 pm 
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Whoooooooooo boy. You're missing the point here buddy. But it is humorous to see so much indignation from someone who tosses the term "Nazi" around like it ain't no thang.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:11 pm 
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Use your vehicle of salvation, my brothers, go buy a gun.
And go give your gun to Jesus and say "Jesus...
You go kill the deciples of Satan and you kill the nazis, Jesus."
Gimme an amen. Amen. Gimme a hallelujah, brother. Hallelujah.
Feel the pain of sweet Jesus. Gimme another amen. Amen. Gimme another. Amen.
You've got to kill the noise.
You've got to kill the pollution of Satan, brother, gimme a hallelujah.

- Fred Durst

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:40 pm 
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Shadow: Seriously; you've made multiple threads and dozens of posts treating people who prefer sixty card decks as some kind of dangerous cultists because you happen to disagree with what you call their beliefs. It's not a belief, it's maths, statistics, and probability. You can choose to ignore that those things exist. You can run more cards despite the impact they have on your effectiveness, and no one has a right to tell you that you can't. That's your call.

You have a belief. You believe you have more fun playing with more cards. That's fine. They have a science they are adhering to. They adhere to the science that "minimum number of cards means you are more likely to draw your best ones consistently." Which actually holds double true for DotP decks where you may not have the option of running four copies of the cards you want like you would in real Magic.

You are not wrong or bad for wanting to use more cards. However, neither are they wrong in that they understand the maths involved and choose to stick with what probability says is most consistent. They're not against free thinking, or whatever. The sixty-five you run might not include the sixty they run, and that's personal preference. Sure, over a long enough timeline and in enough situations, some cards are going to be consistently more useful than others. Torch Fiend is generally better than Shatter, but if you need that Instant speed, Shatter comes out ahead. No one would be wrong for running either card.

Relax.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:43 pm 
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Shadowcran wrote:
"I see this kind of abuse constantly at these players from what I called "math nazis". I'm sorry if you guys took offense, but really the only way to take offense at such a term is if it actually applies to you. If it doesn't apply to you, it doesn't bother you one bit, does it?"

You do realize how utterly hopeless you sound here, right? What if you swapped Nazis for a different N word? Do I need to be that particular shade to qualify for offensiveness benefits?

Who is actually abusing new people around here anyways? If someone asks me what I think about Voice of the Provinces and I say "that card is terrible", is that abuse? When that person fires back that I need to "expand my mind" into the world of "alternative thinking" and I tell them "not really bruh, the card is over-costed for what it does, a.k.a. turrible" is THAT abuse? Comparing hard math/numbers to your claims of "just try it, really, it works" is abuse?

Seriously dude.

Did the "other N" word oppress people and forbid other ideologies? No, and as a black man, I take offense at you comparing my race to Nazis even as some misguided point.. What should I expect from someone using Colonel Sanders as an avatar but someone who ties a race with one of the most murderous regimes in history?

Take your racist ass somewhere else.



You're comparing people who use math correctly to a race that slaughtered hundreds of thousands of people at least twice daily, then trying to pull the race card? Go pull a dictionary out of your ideology and look up the word hypocrisy. I'm sure you'll find it familiar.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:48 pm 
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Shadowcran wrote:
"I see this kind of abuse constantly at these players from what I called "math nazis". I'm sorry if you guys took offense, but really the only way to take offense at such a term is if it actually applies to you. If it doesn't apply to you, it doesn't bother you one bit, does it?"

You do realize how utterly hopeless you sound here, right? What if you swapped Nazis for a different N word? Do I need to be that particular shade to qualify for offensiveness benefits?

Who is actually abusing new people around here anyways? If someone asks me what I think about Voice of the Provinces and I say "that card is terrible", is that abuse? When that person fires back that I need to "expand my mind" into the world of "alternative thinking" and I tell them "not really bruh, the card is over-costed for what it does, a.k.a. turrible" is THAT abuse? Comparing hard math/numbers to your claims of "just try it, really, it works" is abuse?

Seriously dude.

Did the "other N" word oppress people and forbid other ideologies? No, and as a black man, I take offense at you comparing my race to Nazis even as some misguided point.. What should I expect from someone using Colonel Sanders as an avatar but someone who ties a race with one of the most murderous regimes in history?

Take your racist ass somewhere else.

Edit: Yes suh! I'll shine dos' boots for ya, massah! Cans I has some fried chicken? Please don' whip me for dis here double post! I bes good from now on.


Shadow, this is unbelievably inappropriate, and your response completely misses the point. No one was comparing Nazis to black people, he was simply saying that both words are offensive. By calling someone a nazi, you are inadvertently implying that their behavior is on par with the systematic extermination of millions of Jews, which is pretty insulting to the Jewish people, when you consider what we are talking about.

Also, as has been discussed previously (and this is directed at everyone,) your personal race, creed, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or anything else has no bearing whatsoever on what is and isn't considered appropriate.

And finally, I'd like to remind everyone that if you have an issue with a post, please report it, and keep discussion in the thread on topic and respectful, or you run the risk of being moderated yourself. The moderation team appreciates that some people want to resolve issues on their own, but when it comes to violations, let the mods handle it so that we can prevent things from snowballing past the point of no return. Let's keep this thread civil, or it will be closed, and warnings may be issued.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:39 am 
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It is nice to see admins who are intelligent and really seem to care. I'm not use to this at all.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:42 am 
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I have always been wondering something. Why is 70 the cut off? Why not 65 or 80 or anything else?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:30 pm 
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mjack33 wrote:
I have always been wondering something. Why is 70 the cut off? Why not 65 or 80 or anything else?

I think it actually used to be over 70 and then he was convinced down to 70.
I could be wrong, memories of the old forum are gradually disappearing...


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:30 pm 
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No, it was always 70. Any higher is delving into pure luck.

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The Best defense is one where the attacker breaks himself upon it, allowing you to counterattack them into oblivion.

If You get an aggro player to stop attacking, you've got the match won.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:32 pm 
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Why? What is it about 75 cards that is so bad? Why is 70 the cutoff? I don't want to offend you or anything, but everytime I read your posts on this this seems to go unstated or get glossed over, and it actually confuses me. Since this thread seems like it isn't going to die anytime soon (it probably should honestly), I can't help but ask "What is wrong with 72 card decks?"


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:48 pm 
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mjack33 wrote:
Why? What is it about 75 cards that is so bad? Why is 70 the cutoff? I don't want to offend you or anything, but everytime I read your posts on this this seems to go unstated or get glossed over, and it actually confuses me. Since this thread seems like it isn't going to die anytime soon (it probably should honestly), I can't help but ask "What is wrong with 72 card decks?"


Well then, I apologize for the confusion.

The results came from playtesting constantly as you know I do.

At 71 to 73, the deck can still be played but it is starting to show cracks. Something will give, either mana, creatures or the other spell types. You'll have a shortage of one sometimes

At higher that that, the deck will definitely short you something. The higher the count from that, the worse it gets. You might end up with a fistful of land and spells with no creatures showing up.

I know this isn't that good an explanation, but I just woke up.

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The Best defense is one where the attacker breaks himself upon it, allowing you to counterattack them into oblivion.

If You get an aggro player to stop attacking, you've got the match won.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:58 pm 
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But then why 70 instead of 68? Why 68 instead of 65? And so on.... Is it just testing and you like 70 best? Is that literally the only reason?

Because ....... I know you don't like to hear this, but people rigidly defend 60 for certain reasons. And the main one is that is the lowest card count you can run period. Past that, it's harder for me to understand rigidly defending 70 versus 72 or something similar.

Once you start going through card draw and tutoring and ramp, why 70 is the number is even harder to understand. Because any argument I've heard so far can as easily be applied to just that one more card.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:13 pm 
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mjack33 wrote:
But then why 70 instead of 68? Why 68 instead of 65? And so on.... Is it just testing and you like 70 best? Is that literally the only reason?

Because ....... I know you don't like to hear this, but people rigidly defend 60 for certain reasons. And the main one is that is the lowest card count you can run period. Past that, it's harder for me to understand rigidly defending 70 versus 72 or something similar.

Once you start going through card draw and tutoring and ramp, why 70 is the number is even harder to understand. Because any argument I've heard so far can as easily be applied to just that one more card.

Personally, I find "60-64, Deal with it" to be the best possible answer to "how many cards?" or "Only run 60 ever" discussions. :D
(Although, I'm pretty sure 61 and 64 were throwbacks to D13's auto-land thing so rather than suggesting it to others anymore, I merely state that it's how I play DotP. I should actually find out what decks are at what counts currently. I haven't been paying attention lately...)


Last edited by Splattercat on Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:12 pm 
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ok, Splattercat, from now on I'm adopting your motto and I'm just not going to get into this argument again. I've explained why x amount at least 25 times in this and the other forum and still I get the same question. I'm frankly bored to the point of aggravation even debating it anymore. Aggravation at myself from ever trying a different way to play the game and explaining it to others.

I won't post in this thread again, but will leave with this statement: Don't limit yourselves due to what anyone else says. Do your own testing and only consult others for 2nd opinions.

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The Best defense is one where the attacker breaks himself upon it, allowing you to counterattack them into oblivion.

If You get an aggro player to stop attacking, you've got the match won.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:53 am 
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N-N-N-N-N-Necro!!!

I was bored and went to the last page desperate for something to read. Behold.. this again. Lol!

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