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 Post subject: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:38 pm 
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If somebody ever made a card with Crew 0, would the following be true?

1) You have to tap something to turn the vehicle into a creature, but
2) That something could be a Wall or something else with power 0

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 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:39 pm 
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Both would be true.

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 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:45 pm 
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AzureShade wrote:
Both would be true.


I disagree. The cost would be "Tap any number of untapped creatures you control with total power 0 or greater." 0 is a valid choice for "any number" and the total power of a group of 0 creatures is 0.

So I think you could activate a "crew 0" ability without tapping anything.

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 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:54 pm 
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I don't think you could get away with crewing a vehicle by tapping no creatures. I mean, 0 is still a number right? You would still need to tap something to fulfill "0 or more power."

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magicpablo666 wrote:
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


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 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:26 pm 
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I agree with CommanderJim's assessment. "Nothing" is always a valid choice for "any number of [something]", provided the other conditions are met, and the total power of nothing is 0.


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 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:29 pm 
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I would argue (perhaps incorrectly) that the total power of nothing is nothing, which is different from the actual number 0.

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magicpablo666 wrote:
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


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 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:59 pm 
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"107.2. If anything needs to use a number that can’t be determined, either as a result or in a calculation, it uses 0 instead."

If you sacrifice a Sword of the Ages with 0 creatures, it deals 0 damage to the target.


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 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:22 pm 
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I don't think we even need that rule. The value of an empty sum is zero.


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 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:32 pm 
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By convention the empty sum is 0, no reason for Magic to necessarily hold to that convention.

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 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:40 pm 
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Dr_Demento wrote:
By convention the empty sum is 0, no reason for Magic to necessarily hold to that convention.

but if it broke from mathematical convention, one would assume it would tell us somewhere.

:duel:

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 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:23 pm 
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razorborne wrote:
Dr_Demento wrote:
By convention the empty sum is 0, no reason for Magic to necessarily hold to that convention.

but if it broke from mathematical convention, one would assume it would tell us somewhere.

:duel:

(Nonexistent mana costs can't be paid.)

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 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:27 pm 
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razorborne wrote:
Dr_Demento wrote:
By convention the empty sum is 0, no reason for Magic to necessarily hold to that convention.

but if it broke from mathematical convention, one would assume it would tell us somewhere.

:duel:

(Nonexistent mana costs can't be paid.)

well, sure, but evermind's converted mana cost is still 0, not N/A.

:duel:

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 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:43 pm 
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If they ever printed a Crew 0 card, I'm sure they would update the rules such that Crew N meant "Tap one or more untapped creatures you control with total power N or greater: This Vehicle becomes an artifact creature until end of turn." I mean, they changed lifelink and deathtouch (both of which started their keyword lives as triggered abilities) so they would work the way they intended for them to work. And I'm pretty sure they intend at least one creature to be tapped for Crew abilities. But as currently worded? I agree you could technically declare an activation of Crew 0 without tapping any creatures.

I have a feeling I'll understand why this topic exists when I check YMtC. :incognito:

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 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:05 am 
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Lemme be honest: part of this discussion was meant to determine the viability of of designing a card with Crew 0. It appears said card is not viable.

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