I would also like to see mjack stay. I enjoy reading most of his posts. I am here to think critically about how to improve my DotP deck builds and play strategy. Mjack's often dissentious advice / ideas are a welcome contribution.

I feel the origination of this post is partly my fault. Mjack and I had a brief interchange in the Sliver Hive deck thread in which he seriously offended me. Not by calling me names or disagreeing with my ideas, but by implying with false / non-existent quotes that I was indecisive about a certain card's use. It made me seem like I didn't know what I was talking about, which was not the case.

Even with the ignore function available, the problem I encountered would not be resolved. I feel that posts that discredit a person's advice / knowledge (intentionally or unintentionally) should be treated with some degree of moderation. I don't care if someone calls me a noob to my face (because I'm not), but when they may make others believe it simply because I am a new poster, to me, that is unacceptable.

There's some good stuff here, but as I've said before I don't want this to turn into "the mjack" thread. I know that's a tough line to toe, because on the one hand he's essentially the catalyst that got this topic started. So let's do a few replies. First, one from the off topic thread:



We were actually able to reproduce this - without a broken mouse, even. It looks like it's a timing issue, and mjack's broken mouse helps hit that timing correctly more than a user sitting there manually hitting "submit" over and over. But it is possible to do manually, let alone with a mouse in his condition. So for whatever that's worth.

(Also, I find it deliciously ironic about the number of double posts in this thread so far. But maybe that's just me. )

So, let's see if we can wrap up the double post topic. There are certainly more interesting things to talk about.



I'm willing to discuss double posting more if somebody has more to say, but I'm also willing to move on if everybody else is.

~~~~

I'm glad to see a fair number of folks supporting mjack as well in this thread, even when they don't agree with him. I find that encouraging.

~~~~



And I think this post brings up the next discussion bits nicely, getting a few things all in one. (Thanks, Nim, for making my summation easier. )

So...

A) The ignore function. I've never actually used it on any forum I've been on. I've been tempted a few times, but I find myself able to usually just scroll past their posts and/or make use of my 10 minute rule when replying to them. But, for some people ignore is a valuable function, and as a mod I really do wish more people would use it. Even if they only use it for a day to calm themselves before looking at another user's posts, it can help prevent acrimony.

B) "And typically, *somebody* feels compelled to respond to something he's said, even if only to have a correct answer/more logical point of view sharing prominence." This, I think, is fine. That's why we're here after all - to have discussions.

"And these discussions tend to go on endlessly, spreading into every thread..." but here's where it breaks down, in my opinion. It shouldn't spread to every thread. At least ideally (I'm not an optimist, so I know it's bound to happen at least a bit). But ideally, each thread is it's own contained conversation. If I go and say something stupid in Thread A, that shouldn't affect how my comments in threads B, C, and D are viewed. Even if I posted stupid stuff in A, B, and C, thread D should - again, I'm talking ideally - be judged on its own.

But we're all human, and we all carry around biases (even when we don't want to admit it). We crave pattern recognition, and so once I've posted poorly in A, B, C, D, E, and F then I shouldn't be surprised when my brilliant ideas in G are met with silence or ridicule or whatever. That's the way the human mind works.

But there's a difference between me treating your ideas in G poorly based on your history and me dragging your history into G. It's subtle, maybe, but in the former I'm judging you based on my experience with you. This is the consequences of your own actions; you've opted to post poorly previously, and so that follows you around until you can change your reputation*. The latter, though, is different. I'm in thread G. It's about, oh... Bugged Card Interactions (just to pick a random topic from the forum). You've gone and brought up something you think is a bug. But I then post about how stupid your comments were in the firewave thread, and that means you can't possibly have any idea what you're talking about in the bug thread. I've now, essentially, dragged the Bug thread off topic because of my dislike for your posts in the firewave thread. The two really have no connection, except you made posts in them. (And to be clear, just in case... "you" is generic here.)

Like I said, it's a subtle difference. The first I find to be acceptable; it's the consequences of your previous actions carried forward into current interactions. It's really no different than that guy everybody works with. He's a conspiracy nut. He thinks his boss hates him, his co-workers are out to get him fired, and that the HR manager wants to lower his bonus so she can get more. Nobody listens to a word he says. Then one day he says there are going to be layoffs and everybody ignores him, except the pink slips come out later that day and everybody but Mr. Paranoid got blown out the door. (What? Am I the only person who has ever worked with this guy? )

The latter is off-topic posting, and - as you've folks seen - can derail conversations. And that's why the CoC mentions it, because we know it can be a conversation killer. It can even be a forum killer if left unchecked, really. I'm gonna sound like a broken record (Do you kids even know what a record is? *shakes his cane* ) but please go ahead and report this sort of stuff. Almost all the time, nobody will get in trouble for this the first or even second time (unless there's something else mixed in like flaming and such). Instead, we're likely to drop a "mod voice" post into the thread asking folks to get back on target, and maybe a PM or two as well to help steer specific users away from the edge. I know this is going to take some time, because folks are used to drive by ORC modding rather than mods who will read context and such. Again, we don't want to delete posts or edit posts or give out warnings or any of that. It's work. I'd be super happy as a mod if all I ever had to do was delete accidental double posts and sometimes nudge a thread or a poster back onto the rails. That'd be awesome! I could maybe spend more time posting about games, actually, that way.

So let's keep the conversation rolling. Let's not take pot shots at mjack ("This double post brought to you by mjack" <-- I'm looking at you... ) Like many who have posted here, I do hope mjack stays, because he makes the decision to stay. I hope some of his habits change, yes; but I also hope some habits of others change, too.

* so this is already a wall of text. Story behind the spoiler for those who want to read it.

You're completely right, but I'm not sure that's actually what's happening here. Maybe it is for some, but I was referring more to the fact that these 'mjack has another crazy opinion' derails are always different, yet occur in every thread. It's the sheer number of these types of debates that make them exhausting. I'm sure we've all had spirited opinions at one point or another, and a healthy discussion is what we're all here for...but for one poster to seemingly turn every thread into a defense of their extreme views seems outside what can reasonably be expected.

I think a major issue is that some felt compelled to respond to every single post, even if it was just the same thing they said last post re-phrased. The discussion isn't moved forward and we get nowhere. People will disagree, we need to be ok with that and just leave it if we have nothing actually new to add. Always needing to have the last comment isn't part of a healthy discussion.

Few remarks from my standpoint: I disagree with lots of posters, usually I refrain from posting though. I got tired of flaming/trolling years back, and if I occasionally make the mistake of offending people, please just tell me - I may have missed it in a passionate statement about a game I've played for 15+ years.

As has been voiced before, difference of oppinion is what creates discussion, diversity and the whole basis for having a forum in the first place. Problem comes when it devolves into a pissing contest. Trying to find meaningful information and respond and adding to a conversation becomes really hard when it's a mix of disguised slurs, low selfesteem epeenboosting comments and just plain flaming.

I'm tempted to say "grow up", but I'd just be pouring gasoline on an open flame. So I try to ignore it. Only human though.

I consider myself an average player, but I spend a lot of time reading up on rules and such to better myself and find those little loopholes that can make a card much better than facevalue tells you.
I like the challenge of sitting opposite another human being, playing the hand dealt(or mulliganed), that's the real pissing contest! Mano-y-mano, testosterone pumping, sweat pouring, adrenaline pumping. I can't tell you how many girls I've picked up in this game. (I really can't tell you about a single one )

And after an exciting best-of-5 matches against someone, I like to peruse the forums and see what's going on. Either feeling victorious and in the mood to tell anyone who will listen how the game works. Or feeling bummed out for straight out loosing to "the horrible luck of my opponent, the obvious broken shuffler, the bad matchups and several bugs", and in the mood to tell anyone how they SHOULD have done or what they SHOULD do or why their choices are wrong. In pure spite.

I try not to. I really do. And I almost always succeed. I mean, who doesn't fall off the wagon once in a while ? (for reference, see any response I have ever given in a thread about "the broken shuffler" and you will find I'm really not a sympathetic person at all and if those thread represented real life, I would get punched in the face. Alot. More.)

As has also been said, I like the atmosphere here alot more than wotch forums and the ORC approach. When something feels friendly and warm, you want to behave. When it's skynet running things with hunterkillers, you get.. defensive..

Conclusion or TLDR or whatever:

I think everyone should be entitled to their oppinion, and voice it as they see fit. Just behave like adults when you do.

I like your TL;DR summary, Mwuanno. I think that cuts right to the point pretty well.

The staff and I appreciate the kind words towards us that have come up in this discussion. From the beginning, we wanted to build a community here, and that involved having the staff as part of the community. We've made some mistakes along the way, of course; and we'll make more. But it's nice to hear from folks that our efforts are paying off. Thank you all very much for those words.

I saw a bunch of great ideas here, from both "sides" of the discussion. I find that encouraging, too. It's great to have community leaders that want to engage in discussion to resolve problems, but if the community doesn't also engage, then I may as well sit here and talk to my monitor. So thank you to those who shared their thoughts, especially since it often meant reading through my (bad) habit of overwriting. So thanks, again, to those who were willing to read, and to those who were willing to engage in conversation by sharing their thoughts.

Here's what I think is the takeaway of everything:

From our side of the fence, we are not OK with a sub-community driving off a member. Everybody is welcome to post here at NGA as long as they're willing to follow the CoC.

but... the last clause there is important. "... as long as they're willing to follow the CoC." That's where you folks come in, by letting us know of problems so we can work them from our end. The CoC has a fair bit of wiggle room (on purpose) so that we can handle community standards in different areas as necessary.

So here's what I'd like to see going forward. (And I'm actually seeing it already, to be fair, in some of these cases.)

1. If you accidentally double post, please go into one of the posts and delete the duplicate. If your ability to edit expires, please press the report post icon for the post you need deleted and one of us will get it.
2. If you see somebody has double-posted by accident, give them a moment to see it and correct the mistake. If it's still there after 10 minutes or so, go ahead and report it. (Note: if somebody else has already reported it, you'll be told of that; so you can't create extra work for us - we only get one notification, no matter how many people try to report it.

In either of those cases, please recognize that the double post wasn't done to be malicious. As I said, the staff was able to reproduce the issue so it's not just an mjack thing (but I highly suspect his faulty mouse makes it more likely to happen for him). Since the poster wasn't being malicious, please just go about posting as though the double wasn't there. Eventually, it'll go away. Give the mods up to 48 hours to get to the maintenance task; if the double is still there after 48, please send me a PM.

That's the easy one. Double content posts are a bit trickier, but I think we can establish some guidelines here, too.

1. Use the "5 minute rule." If you made a post, and nobody has yet replied to the thread, and you want to add new info, and less than 5 minutes has elapsed, please edit the new details into your existing post.
2. After 5 minutes, or when making several replies, it's going to come down to poster judgment. As a general statement, I would suggest that individual posters try to conform to what seems to be the norm for the forum as a whole.

If somebody gets to a point where they regularly ignore the 5 minute rule, or they seem to be double posting content an awful lot, there are two things to do. The first is to attempt to politely talk to them about. PM is better, because it doesn't clutter the thread up. If you don't think you can be polite, or you aren't comfortable PMing somebody, or you have PMed but still don't see a change, then report one of the posts. You'll have to do some work on this one, because Ravenclaw or Furt - whoever gets the report - won't know the history. So give them the info they need to make a decision. The mod will then approach the double poster and have a discussion. No warnings, at least not at first. It's frankly not worthy of a warn (too much paperwork ). If the issue persists even after mod intervention, though, then we might get out of the "please don't do that" discussion and into the "this is forum disruption, so STOP" discussion.

So I think that will cover all the various double post scenarios; we give mjack the benefit of the doubt when his mouse acts up, we give others the benefit of the doubt if they manage to hit the timing just perfectly and double, and we cover establishing a community standard going forward for how you folks specifically want to handle content double posts as a group. We also, through all the above, remove all the thread derailment that occurs around this topic, which is also a win for the forum.

I have to run to a meeting. I'll address some more stuff in a bit. In the meantime, if anybody sees flaws in this, please let me know and we'll address that.

I've added these points to the OP.

Must say they are good points. Ofcourse they should be obvious, but as of now we have some reference and guidelines to what is and what is not considered to be an annoying post.

My perspective,

Double posting: I don't care.
Factually incorrect card/deck discussion: this isn't a quality controlled site and I can make my own judgements.
Certain posters ruining forum enjoyment for others: ignore function should be sufficient.

I believe there is a problem with the last one since users have created the important 'Decklist' threads putting them on ignore limits your interaction with these threads. I think a solution would be to have a mod create these OPs so that any user can ignore any other user without losing convenient access to these threads. If the mods are too busy then we should nominate an inoffensive forum member to do it.

While I fully support the notion of having a dedicated 'deck list guy' for future decklists I don't think that that is a viable solution for current decklist threads. Creating new threads would solve the issue with having important content blocked by certain users but would also result in the loss of every discussion which has taken place up to this point (a prime example being Enchanter's Arsenal at 12 pages) or would result in a very messy subforum with duplicate threads all over the place.

While I was mostly talking about future decklist threads, forums I have moderated had the ability to split discussions and add posts by the moderators. Assuming the same functionality is available here, the current thread content could be saved. But that would likely take a bit of work and is, imo, unnecessary. As long as a solution is found before the next DotP.

So... got wrapped up in other stuff at work. So I have more summary thoughts coming along, but probably not until tomorrow. I'm running on 3 hours sleep at the moment...

On the matter of the ignore function: when you have a poster on ignore, you are still given the option to view their post. It more or less puts the post behind a "spoiler" block and makes the contents available to you with a click. So for deck threads, even if you had the thread starter on your ignore list you could pretty easily view the first post to see the deck.

Just something to mention, in case folks weren't aware of it.

As I see so many people having a block on a user and they think it will take away the viewing of the original decklist post...
Let me say this.
mjack may rub you the wrong way, quite frankly he's pissed me the hell off many times, but he did do the work to post the decklist for quite a few from this year and all of last years game before any of the mjack haters even joined this "what was not a forum until mjack helped make it so" forum.

Please keep that in mind.

You're right. I'm sure he had no personal motive for wanting to be part of a much less heavily moderated forum where a quarter of his posts wouldn't disappear.

I only said, Keep That In Mind.
Whatever else comes, will.

Man, you're really fond of repeatedly bringing up his "contributions". Sorry BRUH, typing up a couple of decklists doesn't excuse his behavior here or back there. I won't encourage him to leave, but you're crazy if you think I'll encourage him to stay.

As someone who has dealt with the likes of Vastet, killab, and Stevolutionary, I can say that they didn't have anything on our recently MIA "pal".

Cool Chickenman,
Again, all I asked was to keep that in mind, what ever else is.
Do you not think I wasn't pissed as all **** when I got fed up with his nonsensical posts and encouraged everyone to block him and all would be happy, only to be given a 3 day ban 2 minutes after posting my opinion?
Cut him a small break or not, it's not my concern other than bringing up his contribution to getting us started here. Whether it was for overpost selfish reasons on his behalf is not something I know.
Very well could be.

That guy must've been around before my time, I don't remember him.

Loool, I remember that card getting removed and posts deleted. XD

I did. I'm not openly calling for his being permed like I did killab and Khronikos. I just wish he'd go away or take some of the four months of advice he's had from over two dozen people underlining exactly what's wrong with his posting habits. Multiple people have told him in excruciating detail exactly what's wrong, why, and usually how to fix it too. He just either doesn't try very hard to take that advice or doesn't care or something because the fact this is even being discussed means that he probably hasn't changed at all. No one else gets this kind of ire. Not me, not mobius, not Splattercat, not (K)carstein, or any of the other people who've been dragged into large arguments before - sometimes with each other.

To a certain extent we did get cut some slack because was also made useful contributions and whatnot, but out of the people I named, I don't think any caused more problems than contributions.

In case you haven't read the off topic thread, try blocking people you don't like. I don't like my list being 6 people long, but it's better than me getting into a flame war with 3 of the last 8 posts.

Edit: Also if we are making suggestions, I can't see anything posted in the thread when making an edit. While that is no excuse for a double post, it would be really helpful for just general overall discussion if people were able to do so.