What did you lose to?

White/Selesnya weenies. Paying 3 for Murder particularly was a big deal, because there's not enough turn 2 removal allowing you to hold up counters on turn 3 without taking 4+ damage. But not drawing a sweeper was the biggest deal.. makes me want Dead Weight.

Yeah, white aggro on the play can be a pain, especially if you don't see it coming and don't keep a strong anti-aggro hands.

And matchup-wise, UW Spirits is a bad matchup with the amount of flash creatures I'll have to deal with.

I tried the Wasteland Strangler and its working out great. Thank you.

Originally before the Selfless Spirit and Nebelgast Herald release, I was using the Wall of Resurgence wall creature in the Kindly Stranger slot with Angelic Purge instead of Anguished Unmaking with the Drownyard Temple with a couple of man-land mixed into the land cards, yet there was a trait of clumsily losing by failing to resist making bigger man-land creatures or making man-land with basic land instead of protecting the land from creature removing cards. As a matter of math among its rare losses; most was because there were needed land that found it way to the graveyard unnecessarily from the battlefield and these loses carries a special feelsbadman because all one has to do is accept the wall creature as the deck's defender creature only overall while only using its three +1/+1 counters placing abilities on the Drownyard Temple or when entering the battlefield later in the game on the man-lands. (Great plus here with the Essence Flux in the deck)

@megabeast37215
The rotation of bringing in the new cards haven't been perfected yet and thanks again to you for the Wasteland Strangler suggestion. This looks to be a new mainstay for the deck.

I found another hideous situation for Vert's deck. On the draw vs turn 3 Fevered Visions. It's brutal. I think I'm going to cut the two Comparative Analysis for Compelling Deterrence. CA does very, very little IMO.. it's just nice to have when the opponent takes a turn off. Deterrence would allow me to counter anything problematic that gets resolved. I'm not really wild about 2 for 1ing myself.. but I hate seeing such a powerful deck roll over and die to a specific card that's a rather common sight in my experience. CD could pull double duty in a number of other roles too..

At the start of the season I faced a pretty good Esper deck that used Felidar Cub. With the abundance of enchantments it might be quite nice. If you have a way to take care of Suppression Bonds and Imprisoned in the Moon then Anguished Unmaking is the only way to stop your walkers. + you can revive the cub with Liliana.

Or maybe Collective Effort for more ver(t)satility? Although the WW cost might hurt.

I thought about CE in the place of Murder.

I've tested these cards before when mill was a bit more common, so here's my thoughts:

Compelling Detterance - Cheap and easy to cast option although card disadvantage, has the advantage of helping against aggro as well to buy you time or bouncing a PW before ultimate.

Collective Effort - Good card but getting double white is really awkward so it didn't end up working out.

Displacement Wave - Has extra utility of getting rid of opponents tokens or clues from tracker but expensive if you want to bounce & counter.

Felidar Cub - The best option imo if you want enchant hate. Easy to cast and something to attack or trade with if not otherwise needed as well as getting back with Liliana. Wouldn't want more than 1 copy though.

CE is pretty bad in a Control deck IMO. It's main drawbacks are sorcery speed and being very situational. Murder kills many things CE does not (e.g. Tireless Tracker, Hanweir Garrison, many Spirits). Also, it almost never is a 2-for-1.
CE is a lot better in Aggro decks that it has a go-to mode in (the counters).

The best Option for enchantments hate is Anguished Unmaking. Cub is alright, as is a 1- or 2-of bounce spell, but neither are amazing.

Yeah, alot of decent cards that would work if the list weren't already so dependent on the cards it has. I'd rather use the always helpful cards, like Comparative Analysis vs. the occasionally helpful cards, like Collective Defiance. I need some semblance of consistency.

The deck is going to have some gaps, but the problem is plugging those gaps usually creates wider gaps. This isn't a deck I would bring if I thought the meta was really fast. The general lag of the meta is what helps this deck do what it needs to do. Just looking at the tourney field, I think I'm a favorite against all but 1 deck, who I just played, and who crushed me. I'll take that.

If you were going to run Compelling Deterrence, I'd run Unsubstantiate instead.

Really? Any reasoning why? I've been running a home-brew Esper deck until I found these boards, and testing out a lot of different cards that I have. Unfortunately I only have Origins, SoI and some EMN unlocked. Anyway, for me, Unsubstantiate is decent for turn 2 before you can counter their Sylvan Advocate, and on the rare occasion you want to prevent ETB effects but don't have counter mana up. Though I would think a Horribly Awry would be better in that case anyway. But in almost every case bouncing a "nonland" permanent is better than Unsubstantiate. Bounce problem enchantments, plainswalkers, and even Ormendahl is a great move. My homebrew deck was pretty much all bounce and counters with Languish and some card draw. While the games took forever, it worked out very well most games with bounce+counter combos taking care of almost any threat. Blessed Alliance or the old Celestial Flare took care of everything else for me.

My new Esper list is based more on lists here, one problem I used to have was my 24 land mana base, increasing to 26 has brought a lot more consistency. Related my biggest problem seems to be actually just not having unlocked hardly any useful BFZ cards, so that's where I'm going next as I really would like Planar Outburst, Ob and maybe Gideon. The Shambling Vent would be a nice addition too, though Blessed Alliance has solved scuffles with low life where I'm suddenly finding myself in burn range.

One thing I don't see in any lists is Thing in the Ice, maybe once you have other options it just gets cut, but to me they are just a little less useful than baby Jace, can drop on T2, stall aggro a little or enough to get ahead and sometimes I can Declaration in Stone and Telling Time to unexpectedly flip it and get in for at least 7. If they can't deal with it it closes out the game faster which can be helpful. More win cons aren't always needed, but I appreciate them when playing AI or an opponent that just won't scoop even when it's obvious.

Keeping in mind my card restrictions, here's where I'm at:
Creature(5)
1 x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 x Thing in the Ice
1 x Disciple of the Ring
1 x Archangel Avacyn

Instant(18)
2 x Blessed Alliance
3 x Compelling Deterrence
3 x Telling Time
3 x Broken Concentration
3 x Calculated Dismissal
2 x Anguished Unmaking
2 x Confirm Suspicions

Sorcery(8)
2 x Declaration in Stone
2 x Languish
1 x Rising Miasma
1 x Tragic Arrogance
2 x Pore Over the Pages

Planeswalker(3)
1 x Liliana, the Last Hope
1 x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1 x Sorin, Grim Nemesis

Land(26)
2 x Plains
5 x Island
2 x Swamp
1 x Sunken Hollow
1 x Westvale Abbey
2 x Drowned Catacomb
2 x Isolated Chapel
2 x Glacial Fortress
4 x Evolving Wilds
2 x Forsaken Sanctuary
2 x Meandering River
2 x Submerged Boneyard


My plan obviously besides adding Ob and maybe Gideon would be to fix up the mana-base with BFZ lands, then swap out Rising Miasma and Tragic Arrogance for Planar Outbursts. TA is pretty cool against multiple walkers, especially just before you drop your 2nd, but overall PO seems way better since aggro can be rough at times depending on their opening hand.

Another note is that Pore Over the Pages seems really good to me, having 6 mana means I can draw 3 cards and still leave up counter mana afterwards. Draw 3 then discard has never been an issue over just straight drawing 2, and I prefer a deeper dig as sometimes shuffle problems just seem to happen. The faster I can get to answering threats seems better, but without being able to test Comparative Analysis I'm not sure how useful Surge would be. Inspiration is fairly lack luster even though it is instant I still like the draw 3 discard for only 3 mana essentially.

Really? Any reasoning why?/quote]

I love Unsubstantiate because it allows you tempo their plays while things are on the stack and like you said, it's good on the draw. Not the mention it hits un-counterable cards and Planeswalkers if you don't have a hard counter in hand, and it hits the same amount of creatures as bounce spells do. They both have their merits though; Compelling Deterrence/Disperse can hit nonland permanents where as Unsubstantiate can't. It also comes down to the type of deck you're running. My version of Esper has other answers for nonland Permanents, so Unsubstantiate suits it better.

For what you have so far, your decks looks pretty good. I love T6 Pore over the pages aswell.

Because if your Esper deck is never tapping out, Unsubstantiate does everything that Compelling Deterrence does plus it bounces spells.

Running 8 or so counters I don't always have one in hand, though it seems good enough. Still bouncing Tutelage to counter it is pretty sweet, though I know Anguished Unmaking is there. For me, any 2 of cards I can never rely on 100%. I've gone plenty of games never seeing a Languish or Anguished Unmaking.

I still can't see how they do the same thing unless you're suggesting you have both of them in hand as well as mana up. But T4-5 languish/planar outburst is really needed in some cases, and that means for me tapping out and needing to bounce/counter combo at least once per match.

Bouncing also can be done EoT with enchantments even if they have mana to replay them, whereas a Unsubstantiate would just let them resolve again.

It also could be that with my playstyle or needing to run Calculated Dismissal instead of a few extra hard counters that it's just a necessary swap, similar to Pore Over the Pages, but in the deck overall they feel superior. When I tested Unsubstantiate before it was with a lot more bounce, but unless I had it T2 (with a T3 counter ready to go) it felt lack luster.

I don't get the Unsubstantiate argument in Esper. It doesn't handle noncreature permanents on board and late game it's a Rethink without actually countering. Disperse and Compelling suffice tempo at your will, protects your PWs and enchantments and unlike Remand, no card draw.
What ETB or hexproof does it really shine against that bounce doesn't, which makes it preferable to bounce? Assuming of course you have all regular Esper arsenal of solutions.

So happy to have Disciple back. I was just able to come back from a bad draw, on the draw, with inconsistent mana, all because I was able to untap once with Disciple. The game ended the second she stuck around a turn.

https://www.twitch.tv/divinevert/v/87064878

I agree with Disciple, a very unassuming power-house.

My biggest problem with my version has been my mana base. I had been doing very well, but then lost 3 in a row due to having no double blue but a hand full of hard-counters, and other games no double black but sitting on languish and no counters in hand.

Not having complete sets really hurts VS play for me I feel like, almost nothing I build is consistent as the lands really do play a role. Mono-W humans does work, but just boring and still dies (most of the time) to most sweepers.

Well, I go away for a little while and a new set drops...

And here I see that Esper control has changed relatively little...

Well, if I can pull myself away from mono-red aggro long enough to play around with my newer build I'll test and post it. Disciple looks really strong right now and Liliana has a lot of playability.

So what new tools does Esper get? Blue Gearhulk and Insidious Will? And if you are including them, what are we cutting?