It just doesn't seem that exploitable to me.

The in-fighting before the game has even starting is provoking a strong fence sitting urge for me.

@Mown:

It wasn't arbitrary. It's based off the stated rules which is how I came to that conclusion. Meta game information is information beyond the game. The game's rules allow us to PM. The game's rules directly state screenshots are off limits. Focusing on the fact that PMs are allowed, it stands to reason that when structuring a PM for the game (which I'm allowed to do) I can use the BCC function of the PM to include others. Or, if I wanted to be obvious about it, I could just send the same message to multiple people with the CC option as well (though that wouldn't have helped me back then).

That's how I'm making a distinct difference between screenshots and BCC for PMs.


And when Cato puts it in that way, that kinda makes it hard to bypass (referring to the using a method that would prove something was said by another player or the mod thing). Off the top of my head the only thing that would allow for that is if he designed such a role which explicitly allows for it.


@Elijin: It's unique strictly to Mown and I due to what occurred in the previous game. Despite what he thinks of my ability to judge character, he greatly disliked that I wouldn't take the easy win that was already setup by Rome with Persia (a byproduct, I'm sure, of the fact that Rag, Nik, and Mown are all friends which would have made it impossible for the Greeks or even Scar to win at all). But rest assured, the infighting is strictly between Mown and I. It won't stop you from having fun and potentially getting into a situation where you will go wtf.

@Eli: In other words, join the game so I can fight you.

In.

weeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Anything for you, Rag.

just try not to get modkilled this time

It seems counterproductive to me to enable players to share information with such a high-degree of reliability. If I have an argument with someone in a PM in which I quote parts of their post, and then BCC that to someone else, you can't lie about that content without the primary recipient immediately realizing it. It's your game and your choice, but I don't see it as a healthy form of gameplay depth, so to speak.

The rules didn't specify all screenshots, but you are still making a distinction between them, so it's not based off the stated rules. The rules also said "such as", implying that it was not limited exclusively to screenshots, but rather a category of actions.

Meta-game information is literally information about the game about the game. In normal games, meta-game information would be about things like players and game-environment (e.g. ladder representation), but since those things are a natural part of this game, I can't come up with something that is meaningfully defined as "Epistemology mafia meta-game".
'Beyond the game' is too nebulous a term to make judgments from, but any way you slice it, screenshots are still game-information. They're no more meta-game information than peeking at someone else's hand in a game of Magic, even if they're both considered cheating.

Is it really a private message if you are sharing it with someone else?

Only of specific content.

Why does that stand to reason? I can also use the BBCode functionality of the content field to embed urls. I believe I can also forward conversations to other users, but I don't feel like setting up the extra accounts to test it properly.

I mean, it doesn't exclude proving that someone else said something to someone else.
It also makes it illegal to prove that someone else said something to you, even if they said it in public, which I find amusing.

I'm not upset because "I didn't get an easy win", and you still keep projecting that I had ulterior motives for wanting to team with Rome, which is why I keep saying you are a poor judge of character. I'm upset because someone in the game saw fit to play an entirely different game than me. That regardless of whatever happened, KoD would never have teamed up with Rome, because of a reason that had nothing to do with the game itself. When I play a game, I assume that they're there to play the same game as me, and not have people with intentions like "I want X to lose the game", "I want to win and the rest of my team to lose", "I want the game to drag on as long as possible" or "I want to help X and Y hook up". I don't care, it has nothing to do with the game, play for the objectives you are given. Otherwise, I find that to be an outright repulsive display of entitlement. I'm not here to play with people whose entire line of reasoning comes down to "I don't want to.", even if your entire family tree has been sexually violated by Romans throughout the last century. It's irrelevant. The game wasn't designed around you having an additional character rule. Would you have sabotaged the entire game for your team if you ended up as a Roman?

a strong player could win even if others were going out of their way to sabotage them at the cost of their own victory

I'm all for allowing anything that makes it easier to lie in this game.

We can sit here and argue our perspectives all day Mown, but it'll end up just like our argument during the last game. You'll be frustrated with me still, and I'll maintain what I said because you're wrong to me.

Cato isn't allowing BCC though in case that wasn't clear so I'm not sure why you're arguing with him. Anyway, a screenshot is a screenshot is a screenshot to me. I don't know what kind of distinction you are making for whatever kind of screenshot you are talking about. As for meta game information, "information about the game about the game" is redundant to say. That's why I focus on meta meaning beyond when I say information beyond the game (in case that, too, wasn't clear). Given what Cato had stated in his rules (one of which is screenshots), it's easy for me to sit here and say screenshots are not allowed (they are beyond the game); however, I don't make that case wrt to BCC since it is literally a function of a PM if I were to employ it. It stands to reason simply because it is nothing more than sending the same message to someone else (my message).

And no, I'm not projecting. You quite simply wanted an easy win, and you got upset over me for not going for the guaranteed win. That's quite literally what it came down to.

And for the record, me not wanting to team up with Rome because it is Rome is entirely viable as an in game reason. You not wanting to accept that isn't my problem.

By the way,

Mown


that's a stupid question.

of course he would

Lol what do ya want? I had a really lame posting restriction. XD

I'll keep my main question short and to the point, because you still haven't answered it for some reason. You can ignore the rest (and this one, I guess, you're not forced to do anything), but it seems really counterproductive to brush over this one if you actually want to resolve anything.
You repeatedly say that BCC were acceptable because they were not screenshots, with that as the sole qualifier. If so, does that mean you would also find account sharing, screen sharing, streaming, .html files or other ways of sharing the content of private messages to be acceptable, since they do not qualify as screenshots and were not outlined as illegal in the rules? If not, what is the distinction that makes them unacceptable when BCC isn't?

i think jedcaj had a posting restriction where he had to include a banana at the end of each of his posts and he got really frustrated with it so he stopped doing it and got modkilled by zipper

Sounds like Jedcaj. Lol

Rag's got it.

@Mown:

What makes you think I want to resolve anything? As far as I'm concerned, Cato has already resolved everything by making BCC illegal in his game. For me, I'm going to keep disagreeing with you because you are wrong as far as I am concerned. BCC was not illegal as far as the first game went despite your feelings about it. Cato allowed us to PM, but never said we couldn't forward messages, include other players in CC or BCC of messages, etc etc.

As for everything else, I'm sticking to what I said about the meta game information. We may not be in Greece, but that hardly matters to me. Typically you don't PM other players in mafia (nor do you screenshot). Cato allowed us to PM in his game so that is within the bounds of the game's information as far as I am concerned. Screenshots though, no. Nor any of your other examples.

As for Rome and reasons, everything I did was within the confines of the game. Telling me my reasons had nothing to do with the game accomplishes or proves nothing to me. At the end of the day, you were upset with me for not taking the easy win. It is as simple as that. Actually it is simpler than that. You are upset with me that I didn't do what you wanted.