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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:33 am 
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I mean, I'm not saying that's really what's going to happen, but something like that would be an option. I'd really like to see it play out that way. I know that's how they explained Sigarda's immunity, but it's really a bit weak. And not only did Sigarda care most about humanity, she also cared most about the fourth sister (at least that's the impression I got from that story where she was mentioned). The revelation that the fourth angel was shielding her from beyond the grave would fit really well and make Saint Traft's geist-protection look like a deliberate hint in retrospect. I don't really think of her as a ghost in the ususal sense, I rather see Sigarda as a kind of angelic Horcrux for the others (speaking in Harry Potter terms).

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 5:25 pm 
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I hoped to see the Fourth Sister as having been right all along and that harmony with the dark forces would be necessary on the long run. But I feel this is too optimistic for Innistrad.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 5:58 pm 
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I hoped to see the Fourth Sister as having been right all along and that harmony with the dark forces would be necessary on the long run. But I feel this is too optimistic for Innistrad.

Eastern European zen just starts to sound like Nietzsche after a while.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:54 pm 
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Sigarda being immune actually made a lot of sense to me, being the angel of dispelling curses and such. There are some specifics on how angels and demons are made on innistrad, but ultimately there is a lot of wiggle room in terms of how they are made. It wouldnt require any retconning for them to be like "the essense of the arch angels works differently than the essence of other ones"

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:59 pm 
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Sigarda being immune actually made a lot of sense to me, being the angel of dispelling curses and such. There are some specifics on how angels and demons are made on innistrad, but ultimately there is a lot of wiggle room in terms of how they are made. It wouldnt require any retconning for them to be like "the essense of the arch angels works differently than the essence of other ones"

People like symmetry, so why would the archdemons be different?
Particularly since black is so much more about the individual ego than white.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:13 am 
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Well we know that demons on this world work differently by way of reincarnation.
There's no evidence that Innistradi angels are sufficiently distinct from other worlds in any meaningful way.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:49 am 
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I assumed that demons on Innistrad worked pretty much like they would anywhere else, except that the Hellmouth was a focal point location that facilitated the process. Like, if I up and killed a demon on Ravinca, the mana that makes it up doesn't cease to be. It lingers in the world and eventually gets around to forming a new demon. Angels and demons aren't born, they just sort of "happen." It's just on Innistrad, they just sorta happen in a specific place at a somewhat accelerated rate. The reason Avacyn got a handle on it all was that she had the Hellvault to store all those demons in instead of killing them and letting them respawn as new demons later.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:41 am 
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In most planes, though, mana-construct beings don't necessarily reform; demons and angels can be formed, but individuals are lost forever, and whatever mana remains from them isn't necessarily going to create a new being.

Innistrad is unique because kind of its shtick is that death isn't forever, with undead beings like zombies and geists being the norm. It's odd that Innistrad's angels don't reform, though "I Am Avacyn" might imply that they do, since Avacyn claims she'd come back to fight Sorin again and again and "couldn't be destroyed".

Now, certainly neither the case for angels or demons, since Emrakul spawns can't be reborn.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:52 am 
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Barinellos wrote:
Eastern European zen just starts to sound like Nietzsche after a while.
"Will to Power" would be an amazing card name.

I really hope the next time we see Innistrad (which will probably happen in a few years), they'll follow it through and keep the look and feel of the place consistent the whole block, especially as blocks only have only two sets now. AVR was rather disappointing with its radical shift in tone, and as I said above, I find EDM at least as disappointing as AVR for pretty much the same reason. The ideal Innistrad block would be a mix of Innistrad, Dark Ascenssion and Shadows over Innistrad in both look and mechanics IMO. It would help a lot if the story happened on the plane rather than to the plane for once and there was no planewide disaster to turn the place inside out. They already have a lot of bits and pieces to work with. The return of the fourth angel could be a thing, Ormendahl really wants some involvement in the story, Halana and Alena are practically a given and will probably get a card, Olivia is probably the de facto ruler of the vampires now, Edgar Markov might dramatically reappear, Tibalt and/or Ashiok might show up etc. There's a ton of stuff that could be used for a more scaled down story and more consistent typical Innistrad flair.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:08 am 
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@Pavor: How do you feel about the state of Innistrad at the close of this block vs the close of the first blovk?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 11:39 am 
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Story-wise it's hard to tell for sure because EDM's story isn't quite over yet, but it looks like some sort of balance between good and evil is reached at the close of both blocks (calling them 'good' and 'evil' for the sake of simplicity). The difference seems to be that at the end of AVR, both sides were at the height of their power, the bad guys because they had been left unchecked for too long, and the good guys because of Avacyn's return and sudden power boost. At the close of EDM, I expect some sort of balance to be restored as well, but that would be due to the fact that a lot of monsters as well as humans died and both sides are seriously weakened (assuming the Eldrazi mutants will just die when Emrakul is locked away). The plane is probably a lot more wrecked than at the close of the first block. And I think they didn't really know what to do with some of the characters in EDM, while it was a bit cleaner in AVR (then again EDM isn't quite over yet, and Tamiyo, Tibalt and Sorin didn't get any screentime in AVR either, so it's probably not that much of a difference in that regard).

Comparing the look and feel of AVR with that of EDM, I'm way less bothered by AVR. The problem I had with AVR was that there were suddenly angels and angel-related cards everywhere (and gryphs, which looked totally out of place for me back then), the werewolves and all other DFCs were just gone, and the whole thing was generally a lot lighter in tone (literally). But at least the horror things that were still there were allowed to be what they are; vampires were still vampires, ghouls were ghouls etc. With EDM, a lot of the formerly cool things were just ruined by being eldrazified. Sure, EDM has DFCs, but the werewolves are also de facto gone (Ulrich is kinda lame and the others are eldrazi on the back). Or take cards like Weirded Vampire. There is NOTHING about this amazing classic Nosferatu-inspired scene (vampires lifting themselves up from bed/coffin in gravity-defying way) that's in any way improved by having weird flesh structures growing out of the vampire's back. Vampire Horrors with tentacles and rubber-necks don't have a place in any of my vamp decks. I'd rather have less of a cool thing but at least see that cool thing done properly instead, as it was with AVR.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 12:49 pm 
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AVR restored was triumphant, and if not for that demonic threat (which in retrospect was fixed) it'd be the perfect happy ending.

I like EM in that it did live up to being a cosmic horror and I do enjoy seing vampires and werewolves being assimilated by The Thing, but the consequences are very ambigous.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 2:54 pm 
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Nobody likes a happy ending.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:27 pm 
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I was fine with the happy ending of AVR, and I understand they had to represent that through the set, I just wish they had toned it down a little bit on the cards and/or had a smoother mechanical transition between AVR and the other two sets. Mechanics can also shape people's perception of the tone or consistency of a set after all. Similarly, EDM has Meld and Emerge, which I don't really like because they're exclusively tied to the Eldrazi (and Meld is pretty clumsy all by itself), which I also don't like. And of course they avoided AVR's mistake of not having DFCs ever after, but all DFCs in EDM except Ulrich turn into Eldrazi as well, so again, they don't do anything for me. In the end, it all boils down to how you perceive the eldrazified stuff. SOI was absolutely amazing and I played the hell out of it, though, certainly the most fun set since the original Innistrad set. I think Innistrad really works best when it's just left alone and allowed to be Innistrad.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:41 pm 
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I know everybody really critical of avacyn returned, and I understand why, but it was a really fun set for me. The mechanics were cool and the quick mechanical switch changed the tone well (although it was a little jarring). I liked the campyness of it all

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 11:08 pm 
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... Or take cards like Weirded Vampire. There is NOTHING about this amazing classic Nosferatu-inspired scene (vampires lifting themselves up from bed/coffin in gravity-defying way) that's in any way improved by having weird flesh structures growing out of the vampire's back. Vampire Horrors with tentacles and rubber-necks don't have a place in any of my vamp decks. ...

I actually really like that card. I took it as a fun poke at an old trope.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 11:36 pm 
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TPmanW wrote:
... Or take cards like Weirded Vampire. There is NOTHING about this amazing classic Nosferatu-inspired scene (vampires lifting themselves up from bed/coffin in gravity-defying way) that's in any way improved by having weird flesh structures growing out of the vampire's back. Vampire Horrors with tentacles and rubber-necks don't have a place in any of my vamp decks. ...

I actually really like that card. I took it as a fun poke at an old trope.


Same. It's both hilarious and disturbing.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:03 am 
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I'm sure poking fun at the classic trope was the intention, but that's just one of those things I would have liked to see played straight. I'm probably too much of a vampire fanboy and too fed up with Eldrazi to appreciate the joke. At least that card had a clever ironic idea behind it, but most other mutants are just plain ugly. And the odd flesh structure on Weirded Vampire looks really awkward, even if you like the idea behind the pose. As I said, I think people's enjoyment of EDM mostly depends on how much eldrazification they're cool with.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:00 am 
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Wizards has said that the clean break between sets like Rise and Restored and the rest of their respective blocks were, in hindsight, mistakes.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:15 am 
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LilyStorm wrote:
Nobody likes a happy ending.


speak for yourself there

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