It is currently Sun Dec 01, 2024 12:49 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Wharf Infiltrator
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:48 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 04, 2015
Posts: 4649
Location: Alchemist's Refuge
Identity: Male
Preferred Pronoun Set: he/him/his/his/himself
Scenario: I control a Wharf Infiltrator and Platinum Angel. I have a creature card in hand and no cards in my library. I attack with Wharf Infiltrator. It is not blocked and combat damage is not prevented.

Question: If I choose to draw a card, do I get to discard my creature card even though there are no cards to draw from my library?

I'm leaning towards a no (55% sure it's correct) but want to be sure.

_________________
Former Rules Advisor (RA program ended 5-3-16)

Up High, Down Low, Whoops, Too Slow.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wharf Infiltrator
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:57 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 09, 2013
Posts: 7454
Location: Mountain View
Preferred Pronoun Set: he/him
Edacade wrote:
Scenario: I control a Wharf Infiltrator and Platinum Angel. I have a creature card in hand and no cards in my library. I attack with Wharf Infiltrator. It is not blocked and combat damage is not prevented.

Question: If I choose to draw a card, do I get to discard my creature card even though there are no cards to draw from my library?

I'm leaning towards a no (55% sure it's correct) but want to be sure.

You do not get to discard. The "if you do" means "if you draw a card", not "if you choose to draw a card".

This is the same reason why you can't deal extra damage with Furnace Scamp if it gets killed while the trigger is on the stack.


I was wrong. See below.

_________________
if someone said this about me i'd make it my signature


Last edited by CommanderJim on Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wharf Infiltrator
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:21 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 08, 2013
Posts: 620
Location: Zaragoza, Spain
Yes, you will discard the card and get a fluffy Eldrazi Horror token. Choosing to draw a card is possible even when your library is empty. Also, the "if you do" clause applies if you chose the option to draw a card, even if you actually didn't draw because the library was empty or a replacement effect changed what happened.

Rules wrote:
120.3. If there are no cards in a player's library and an effect offers that player the choice to draw a card, that player can choose to do so. However, if an effect says that a player can't draw cards and another effect offers that player the choice to draw a card, that player can't choose to do so.

117.12. Some spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities read, "[Do something]. If [a player] [does or doesn't], [effect]." or "[A player] may [do something]. If [that player] [does or doesn't], [effect]." The action [do something] is a cost, paid when the spell or ability resolves. The "If [a player] [does or doesn't]" clause checks whether the player chose to pay an optional cost or started to pay a mandatory cost, regardless of what events actually occurred.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wharf Infiltrator
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:38 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 09, 2013
Posts: 7454
Location: Mountain View
Preferred Pronoun Set: he/him
That's really interesting. I guess it works because attempting to draw from an empty library isn't an illegal action.

So in the Furnace Scamp scenario (say it gets Unsummoned with the trigger on the stack), I'd assume that you can't choose to sacrifice it, since it no longer exists, and sacrificing a non-existent creature is an illegal action.

_________________
if someone said this about me i'd make it my signature


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wharf Infiltrator
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:10 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 07, 2015
Posts: 312
Correct. It's only drawing a card that's a weird exception,


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wharf Infiltrator
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:29 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 04, 2015
Posts: 4649
Location: Alchemist's Refuge
Identity: Male
Preferred Pronoun Set: he/him/his/his/himself
That is indeed a weird exception. Thanks for clarifications.

_________________
Former Rules Advisor (RA program ended 5-3-16)

Up High, Down Low, Whoops, Too Slow.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wharf Infiltrator
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:24 pm 
Offline
YMtC Idol Winner
User avatar

Joined: Sep 26, 2013
Posts: 1067
Interesting rules note: the reason it's a weird exception is because if it wasn't, it would be impossible to lose to decking. The game doesn't let you "attempt to perform" impossible actions, it just skips those instructions entirely, so if there was no exception, when your library was empty and something tried to get you to draw a card, you'd just skip that instruction. And since you skipped the instruction, you never attempted to draw a card, so there's no reason for you to lose...

_________________
Level 2 Magic Judge
:w: ~ :u: ~ :b: ~ :r: ~ :g:
Knowledge knows no bounds.

And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
--Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group