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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:50 am 
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divinevert wrote:
I don't get that enchantment at all, can someone explain it to me?

Suppression Bonds meets Utopia Vow in blue.

Doesn't shut down artifacts or enchantments, but does shut down man lands.


It's better than you guys think. It makes the enchanted permanent a land which means: a) if it was a creature, you can't get value out of it by sacrificing it to, say, Fleshbag Marauder and b) most importantly, the enchanted permanent can't be bounced back to hand with Big Jace -2 or Disperse, which was a weakness of Suppression Bonds.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:57 am 
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divinevert wrote:
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Kinda crowded at that 2-drop spot for RB Vamps tbh. Maybe a better outlet than Ravenous Bloodseeker tho


I dunno. Bloodseeker is a great early combat threat. It's hard to kill if not activated. So do you block it and not block something else, or not block it and maybe take a boost of damage? Gaining evasion is not quite that same thing, it's more of a late-game ability to get around defense. and 2 mana for a late game ability seems weak.
(Sorry I'm being mostly negative today.)


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:59 am 
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More human tech.


Human Recruiter! Nice.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:01 am 
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divinevert wrote:
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Kinda crowded at that 2-drop spot for RB Vamps tbh. Maybe a better outlet than Ravenous Bloodseeker tho


I dunno. Bloodseeker is a great early combat threat. It's hard to kill if not activated. So do you block it and not block something else, or not block it and maybe take a boost of damage? Gaining evasion is not quite that same thing, it's more of a late-game ability to get around defense. and 2 mana for a late game ability seems weak.
(Sorry I'm being mostly negative today.)


I don't agree. Vampires need evasion to get over human aggro and midrange clogging up the ground with blockers and win the race before the slower decks come online. Vamps are fragile bodies with generally crappy toughness, so blocking isn't encouraged. And the more free discard outlets they get, the better.

Two-drop slot is getting crowded for them, though.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:04 am 
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zzmorg82 wrote:
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Hmmm.


The downside is that you're helping them ramp with an extra , but I think that's justifiable. I still want black to have a direct way to kill Planswalkers, but this card makes Esper/Azourious even better.


Actually, upon further review, this card is a serious threat to most of the decks that run only a slight few specific win conditions. Building up nothing but ramp to Ulamog? Sorry, he'll sit in the moon. What else you got?


Enchantment hate is still a thing. :P

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:04 am 
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GFTL wrote:
divinevert wrote:
Image

Kinda crowded at that 2-drop spot for RB Vamps tbh. Maybe a better outlet than Ravenous Bloodseeker tho


I dunno. Bloodseeker is a great early combat threat. It's hard to kill if not activated. So do you block it and not block something else, or not block it and maybe take a boost of damage? Gaining evasion is not quite that same thing, it's more of a late-game ability to get around defense. and 2 mana for a late game ability seems weak.
(Sorry I'm being mostly negative today.)


I don't agree. Vampires need evasion to get over human aggro and midrange clogging up the ground with blockers and win the race before the slower decks come online. Vamps are fragile bodies with generally crappy toughness, so blocking isn't encouraged. And the more free discard outlets they get, the better.

Two-drop slot is getting crowded for them, though.


I feel the crowded slot is OK if they're not running too much super high end expensive. You can make a reliable drawing engine and throw two 2's a turn later game.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:13 am 
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GFTL wrote:
divinevert wrote:
I don't get that enchantment at all, can someone explain it to me?

Suppression Bonds meets Utopia Vow in blue.

Doesn't shut down artifacts or enchantments, but does shut down man lands.


It's better than you guys think. It makes the enchanted permanent a land which means: a) if it was a creature, you can't get value out of it by sacrificing it to, say, Fleshbag Marauder and b) most importantly, the enchanted permanent can't be bounced back to hand with Big Jace -2 or Disperse, which was a weakness of Suppression Bonds.

Meh, not really. The problem with Suppression Bonds is you could bounce the Bonds with things like Disperse or Displacement Wave or destroy it and then suddenly the thing is right back online. This really isn't much of a change from Suppression Bond besides the fact it's moving into blue.

It's good, it has uses, being 3 drop helps it, but it's not some amazing card or anything.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:14 am 
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GFTL wrote:

I dunno. Bloodseeker is a great early combat threat. It's hard to kill if not activated. So do you block it and not block something else, or not block it and maybe take a boost of damage? Gaining evasion is not quite that same thing, it's more of a late-game ability to get around defense. and 2 mana for a late game ability seems weak.
(Sorry I'm being mostly negative today.)


I don't agree. Vampires need evasion to get over human aggro and midrange clogging up the ground with blockers and win the race before the slower decks come online. Vamps are fragile bodies with generally crappy toughness, so blocking isn't encouraged. And the more free discard outlets they get, the better.

Two-drop slot is getting crowded for them, though.


I feel the crowded slot is OK if they're not running too much super high end expensive. You can make a reliable drawing engine and throw two 2's a turn later game.

And what reliable drawing engine is this?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:23 am 
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With all the cheap flash spirits, I could see Mausoleum Wanderer making some nice unexpected counter plays.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:41 am 
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divinevert wrote:
GFTL wrote:

Two-drop slot is getting crowded for them, though.


I feel the crowded slot is OK if they're not running too much super high end expensive. You can make a reliable drawing engine and throw two 2's a turn later game.

And what reliable drawing engine is this?


I don't know the detail yet.
Proof left to reader. (there, that sounds better. ;) )


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:04 pm 
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divinevert wrote:
GFTL wrote:
divinevert wrote:
Suppression Bonds meets Utopia Vow in blue.

Doesn't shut down artifacts or enchantments, but does shut down man lands.


It's better than you guys think. It makes the enchanted permanent a land which means: a) if it was a creature, you can't get value out of it by sacrificing it to, say, Fleshbag Marauder and b) most importantly, the enchanted permanent can't be bounced back to hand with Big Jace -2 or Disperse, which was a weakness of Suppression Bonds.

Meh, not really. The problem with Suppression Bonds is you could bounce the Bonds with things like Disperse or Displacement Wave or destroy it and then suddenly the thing is right back online. This really isn't much of a change from Suppression Bond besides the fact it's moving into blue.

It's good, it has uses, being 3 drop helps it, but it's not some amazing card or anything.


In a world without reliable answers to man-lands and most especially Planeswalkers, it is quite the amazing.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:12 pm 
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It's not that reliable but I'll take what I can get.

Guess it's another reason for superfriends decks to always run Nahiri. Nice flavor win there, btw, Nahiri getting stuff out of the moon prison.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:55 pm 
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zzmorg82 wrote:
zzmorg82 wrote:

The downside is that you're helping them ramp with an extra , but I think that's justifiable. I still want black to have a direct way to kill Planswalkers, but this card makes Esper/Azourious even better.


Actually, upon further review, this card is a serious threat to most of the decks that run only a slight few specific win conditions. Building up nothing but ramp to Ulamog? Sorry, he'll sit in the moon. What else you got?


Enchantment hate is still a thing. :P

"Nah, Reclamation Sage and Felidar Cub will bring him back down from the moon. Image"


They took this straight out of Naruto.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:20 pm 
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If a creature like Altered Ego stops being a creature, but then turns back into a creature by removing the effect that changed it, what does it look like when it starts being a creature again? Obviously equipment falls off, auras that can't enchant a land would fall off, what else happens in a cycle of imprisonment and release?

If a Planeswalker ceases to be a Planeswalker, do they lose their loyalty counters? (Obviously Gideon doesn't when he changes type, but he's very particular about still being a Planeswalker.)


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:26 pm 
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If a creature like Altered Ego stops being a creature, but then turns back into a creature by removing the effect that changed it, what does it look like when it starts being a creature again? Obviously equipment falls off, auras that can't enchant a land would fall off, what else happens in a cycle of imprisonment and release?

If a Planeswalker ceases to be a Planeswalker, do they lose their loyalty counters? (Obviously Gideon doesn't when he changes type, but he's very particular about still being a Planeswalker.)


The card doesn't remove counters, so those should remain. If the enchantment is destroyed, then the cards should just revert back to normal. Altered Ego should become a creature with whatever counters it had on it to begin with, but as a shapshifter only. Planeswalkers should just be Planeswalkers again.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:03 pm 
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Imprisoned in the moon is amazing, here is why:

The 3 cost makes it far more reasonable to cast the spell and hold mana open for something else. The 4 mana cost of suppression bonds has been a big impediment for me in Esper because it is so expensive I will usually have to tap out. If suppression bonds were just one mana cheaper I know I would run 1-2 copies and drop disperse.

Losing all abilities takes care of passive abilities on creatures like tireless tracker. Passive abilities can be dangerous too.

Imprisoned trades the ability to disable enchantments or artifacts for the ability to disable manlands. The thing is there are not many artifacts for suppression bonds to disable and it is not at all reliable vs enchantments. Ulvenwald Mysteries and Sphinx's Tutelage really don't care if they are suppressed. Manlands are a real threat.

So I do consider it a significant upgrade. A little ramp is a worthwhile trade. Basically I consider this the blue Declaration in Stone except they get a free land instead of a 2 mana card draw... I don't really care about my opponent's mana with permission.

UW is starting to look so attractive that I am mighty tempted to just try straight azorious and dump black.

Of course, that assumes we get this card. Somehow I feel we won't get it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:17 pm 
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Well, it's fairly important story-wise. And if Wizards is at all paying attention to metagame trends in Duels, which they might, considering they're giving us Murder, they know how badly we need this card. This, Ruinous Path/Hero's Downfall, and better burn.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:32 pm 
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I mean if they have given us Declaration in Stone and now Murder I can see them bringing Doom Blade into the game in an expansion or two down the line. This game though does need some planeswalker hate. Not enough to make it impossible to get to keep a walker on the field, but enough where we don't have to kill 4+ PW a game with just creatures.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:37 pm 
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Man, all kinds of cool things being spoiled. I'm still not seeing a great reason to play Madness, but we are definitely getting the engines (and I may have missed something). Those 2 drop creatures are going to be amazing if the payoff cards are given to us.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:51 pm 
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Sigarda's Blessing
W
Enchantment
You may cast Aura and Equipment spells as though they had flash.

Whenever an Equipment enters the battlefield under your control, you may attach it to target creature you control.

Seems to be a decent card. I have an azorius control deck that uses enchants instead of kill spells + sigil and giving auras instant speed would be a huge boost to the power of that deck. I know most people would use it in some boros deck, but I think cards like tightening coils, suppression bonds alongside imprisoned in the moon would make for a nice combo. I am starting to think with all those enchants + the ones that aren't buffed by this card like isolation zone azorius enchants + counterspells might just become a decent deck.

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