Everybody please relax. I'm going to clean this up real quick. It's fine to explain a viewpoint, or statistics, etc... But please keep the thread civil - No name calling!
edit: okay, I think I got it all. The conversation is fine, just try not to cross the line into being impolite to each other.
I wasn't flaming? Not intending to anyway.
I was saying it seems to be a newbie's like stance on the matter similar to how newbies might not understand why people play
Remand or other effects like paying life.
The milling doesn't matter because, like others said, it's like not being able to draw the cards from the deck in the first place so in any other random black deck it doesn't matter that you milled away a bit of your deck.
In a dedicated deck it actually even helps that you milled extra cards since you want them in there.
Think of it like this: In any random black deck she is a +1 bonus and fetches your creature back to your hand and in a dedicated graveyard deck she is a +2 or more.
It isn't really a downside that you mill away the cards because you might as well have not seen them cards anyway. The only difference is your visual bias of actually seeing the cards you didn't get to play but in actual fact that is no different than looking through your deck at the end of a game to see what cards you might've drawn.
The difference is obvious if you have any idea how to think of randomly distributed decks of cards. The odds of having any given card at the bottom of your deck are unchanged, and they are compounded with the completely separate odds of milling that card away, resulting in greater odds that any given card will be rendered useless. It's only the same thing as not drawing a card if you think of "luck" of the draw, instead of thinking in terms of probability.
Granted, there's also the fact that she digs and may reach cards that would have been out of drawing range otherwise, but that's pretty negligible unless she lives for 5 or 6 turns.
Self-milling cards are terrible outside of dedicated self-milling strategies, I thought that much was obvious. Maybe the tradeoff is worth it... in the late game, where you might just as well use more powerful effects. It's not like you're going to -2 her a bunch of times.
And, Zombies and MBC are going to be some of the first things I try and she'll be in them. I just don't have much faith, is all. I'll happily eat my hat if I'm wrong.
Now, can we please drop this topic already?
The probability of not drawing cards doesn't change and that is part of the point, there should be no worry on the self mill side effect since the cards would've had a chance to not be drawn or used in the first place.
We must also remember to look at it from a blind perspective and in that blind perspective the cards could be anywhere in the deck and could be shuffled anywhere else at any time. It is this fact that nullifies the point that you could end up milling certain cards because you already could just end up missing them in the first place.
The only real time it matters is if you're vs a strong mill deck that is really going off, in that case the worry is that you might run out of cards but outside of that situation it just goes with the rest of the unknown card draw probability.
It doesn't change the fact the cards are randomly sorted and unknown to what you would draw in the game, hence being able to equate the milled cards to cards you might not have drawn in the first place because they're too far near the bottom of the deck.
There is no real difference to accidentally milling your Languish and not drawing Languish before the game ends because it was on the bottom of the deck. What changes is visual bias of seeing that you milled the Languish and punishing yourself harder for doing so whereas if you didn't draw it, you didn't see it and still don't know where Languish is until the very end of the game when you peek through your cards to see what you might've drawn (which you can't even do in duels).
It's the visual bias that causes this unneeded fear of self milling and other similar effects because, despite not actually being different to not drawing your card at all, people feel like they did it to themselves because you chose to mill yourself vs just not being able draw the card you need.
This is also why I said it is a kind of newbie mentality because it's a type of boundary newbies need to get over to understand why it is okay to do things like milling away your own cards. In the end you shouldn't have known what you may or may not have drawn anyway so the fear is kind of mute.
In any case it doesn't mean Lilliana is bad, it is just a fear of punishing yourself with milling which if thought about properly can be ignored and gotten over.
Lilliana is actually probably quite a good card but just not quite what everyone was hoping for and obviously she doesn't fit in every deck, though she does fit in way more than you reckon she does if you can get over the fear of self mill.
I don't think we will get deploy the gatewatch. Since it is supposed to be 1 mythic per colour isn't it? Additionally, we already have gisela confirmed for white.
That's actually a fairly good point. Hmm.
Actually there's probably more. There's at least 14 mythics in EMN since DFCs add even more than usual.
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