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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:40 pm 
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DJ0045 wrote:
Sir_Shadow wrote:
Because it's 'easier' to play mono-color cards reliably? Kinda makes sense to me.


FWIW, I am not convinced that mono cards are easier to play. But multicolor cards do force specific color combinations, which may justify the added power. I can't do it right now, but I read a very interesting article on the subject a while back. The were talking about GG vs GW 2 drops, and why it was actually more difficult for a competitive deck to reliably cast GG cards (obviously or are easier to play than , but that's a false equivalence, you must compare to or ). Basically, they were going over the math, but I can summarize it here:

You need 20 G sources to run GG on t2 vs. 11 G and 11 W to run GW on t2. So on the surface it looks like the GG is slightly easier (it requires a 20 card commitment and the other requires 22). It isn't however, because say you run 4 GW dual lands, you know only need a total of 18 lands to meet the GW card's requirement (4+7+7=18). This would hold true even if you don't follow the hypergeometric distribution theories on how to build decks - and use some other method to build you mana bases, you'd still have some starting point and the dual lands would make GW cards easier than GG, or WW.

On top of that, the majority of the time you are going to run 2 or more colors, so the GG requirement is an even bigger deal, from the perspective of deck building. GG forces you into mono, or maybe dual color decks. GW is believable in 2, 3, and possibly even 4, or 5 color decks.

It gets even more obvious with a card that costs GGG, vs a card that costs GWU - just as an example.

I actually think WotC has it exactly backwards - but for the record the above is the entire reason I believe this to be the case, so if you don't buy into the logic, I unfortunately don't have much to add.

4 and 5 color decks don't really exist in competitive Magic. And 1GGG and 2GG are too totally different things. Things with a triple color cost (even three drops like Underworld Dreams) usually ARE amazing cards for their cost. A 4 drop with BB in it's cost isn't very hard to cast on curve and comparing it to 2 drops with the same cost is silly.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:43 pm 
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felbatista wrote:
Gotta be a fake. How embarrassing would it be for them to have the PW featured in all the hype videos, one of the power 5, be outshined by a 3 color sidekick PW in the same set?


Like what happened with Jace and Nissa in the last two Sets?


Lol, basically true. Although Big Jace in my eyes is better than this alleged Liliana who's supposed to save everyone from the eldrazi invasion.

That Lili is a 4 drop, basically works as Languish if it comes down on curve, and immediately begins obliterating your opponents' hand. Adjusting for casting cost, she's probably better than big Jace. They would certainly be super fun together.

That said, it looks super fake.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:45 pm 
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Yeah I don't know why all the hate, she's kind of boring but pretty powerful for her cost. Even the ultimate is much like Sorin's.
She's probably fake but I wouldn't be disappointed if she wasn't.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:06 pm 
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She would fit good in a controlshell. The ultimate is lame but if you have counterspells in hand against boardwipes, it can end the game in one swing.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:10 pm 
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That card is fake

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:15 pm 
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divinevert wrote:
DJ0045 wrote:
Sir_Shadow wrote:
Because it's 'easier' to play mono-color cards reliably? Kinda makes sense to me.


FWIW, I am not convinced that mono cards are easier to play. But multicolor cards do force specific color combinations, which may justify the added power. I can't do it right now, but I read a very interesting article on the subject a while back. The were talking about GG vs GW 2 drops, and why it was actually more difficult for a competitive deck to reliably cast GG cards (obviously or are easier to play than , but that's a false equivalence, you must compare to or ). Basically, they were going over the math, but I can summarize it here:

You need 20 G sources to run GG on t2 vs. 11 G and 11 W to run GW on t2. So on the surface it looks like the GG is slightly easier (it requires a 20 card commitment and the other requires 22). It isn't however, because say you run 4 GW dual lands, you know only need a total of 18 lands to meet the GW card's requirement (4+7+7=18). This would hold true even if you don't follow the hypergeometric distribution theories on how to build decks - and use some other method to build you mana bases, you'd still have some starting point and the dual lands would make GW cards easier than GG, or WW.

On top of that, the majority of the time you are going to run 2 or more colors, so the GG requirement is an even bigger deal, from the perspective of deck building. GG forces you into mono, or maybe dual color decks. GW is believable in 2, 3, and possibly even 4, or 5 color decks.

It gets even more obvious with a card that costs GGG, vs a card that costs GWU - just as an example.

I actually think WotC has it exactly backwards - but for the record the above is the entire reason I believe this to be the case, so if you don't buy into the logic, I unfortunately don't have much to add.

4 and 5 color decks don't really exist in competitive Magic. And 1GGG and 2GG are too totally different things. Things with a triple color cost (even three drops like Underworld Dreams) usually ARE amazing cards for their cost. A 4 drop with BB in it's cost isn't very hard to cast on curve and comparing it to 2 drops with the same cost is silly.


Or really? http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=11908&d=268176&f=ST

(I spent less than 10 seconds looking for this)

That's pretty dismissive for something that has been discussed by far more knowledgeable people than you or I for a very long time. It's not silly, it might be off topic though. /shrug

Fwiw, the math is still good for 3, 4, 5, etc... Drops.

And a deck that can run w1 and g1 cards can already handle, with almost no change, a GW card. It probably can't handle a GG or WW card.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:32 pm 
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DJ0045 wrote:

<3 me some Dark Jeskai. I went Mardu and got the promo Crackling Doom, such an amazing card :party:

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:39 pm 
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DJ0045 wrote:
divinevert wrote:
DJ0045 wrote:

FWIW, I am not convinced that mono cards are easier to play. But multicolor cards do force specific color combinations, which may justify the added power. I can't do it right now, but I read a very interesting article on the subject a while back. The were talking about GG vs GW 2 drops, and why it was actually more difficult for a competitive deck to reliably cast GG cards (obviously or are easier to play than , but that's a false equivalence, you must compare to or ). Basically, they were going over the math, but I can summarize it here:

You need 20 G sources to run GG on t2 vs. 11 G and 11 W to run GW on t2. So on the surface it looks like the GG is slightly easier (it requires a 20 card commitment and the other requires 22). It isn't however, because say you run 4 GW dual lands, you know only need a total of 18 lands to meet the GW card's requirement (4+7+7=18). This would hold true even if you don't follow the hypergeometric distribution theories on how to build decks - and use some other method to build you mana bases, you'd still have some starting point and the dual lands would make GW cards easier than GG, or WW.

On top of that, the majority of the time you are going to run 2 or more colors, so the GG requirement is an even bigger deal, from the perspective of deck building. GG forces you into mono, or maybe dual color decks. GW is believable in 2, 3, and possibly even 4, or 5 color decks.

It gets even more obvious with a card that costs GGG, vs a card that costs GWU - just as an example.

I actually think WotC has it exactly backwards - but for the record the above is the entire reason I believe this to be the case, so if you don't buy into the logic, I unfortunately don't have much to add.

4 and 5 color decks don't really exist in competitive Magic. And 1GGG and 2GG are too totally different things. Things with a triple color cost (even three drops like Underworld Dreams) usually ARE amazing cards for their cost. A 4 drop with BB in it's cost isn't very hard to cast on curve and comparing it to 2 drops with the same cost is silly.


Or really? http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=11908&d=268176&f=ST

(I spent less than 10 seconds looking for this)

That's pretty dismissive for something that has been discussed by far more knowledgeable people than you or I for a very long time. It's not silly, it might be off topic though. /shrug

Fwiw, the math is still good for 3, 4, 5, etc... Drops.

And a deck that can run w1 and g1 cards can already handle, with almost no change, a GW card. It probably can't handle a GG or WW card.


Yes, in one standard season, a 4 color deck exists. And Greater Gifts was 4 color, too. That doesn't make them very common. And it's also because of the Tarkir sac lands and when they cycle you won't see Jeskai Black anymore.

But what I'm saying is that BB and 2BB aren't the same thing. It's much more difficult to cast Grasp of Darkness on curve than to cast Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet on curve. You're seemingly ignoring the fact that Tamiyo has 3 color mana requirements whereas the supposed Liliana has 2. Adding in the difficulty of playing her (due to needing Bant colors) and of course Tamiyo should be more powerful than a single color Walker.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:04 pm 
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For the Tamiyo example, the comparison would be something like 1UGW vs 1UUU, and then we'd ask which should be pushed harder at the same rarity. WotC tend to push the former, but the latter is actually harder to play. That's all I'm saying: basically WotC have it backwards, if it's based on the math.

It's not about whether BB is harder than 2BB... It's whether 2BB is harder than 2UB. And in the second comparison, 2BB is actually harder, but WotC tend to push cards like 2UB instead.

I hope this was a bit more cogent, because I think we're talking about different things.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:28 pm 
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DJ0045 wrote:
For the Tamiyo example, the comparison would be something like 1UGW vs 1UUU, and then we'd ask which should be pushed harder at the same rarity. WotC tend to push the former, but the latter is actually harder to play. That's all I'm saying: basically WotC have it backwards, if it's based on the math.

It's not about whether BB is harder than 2BB... It's whether 2BB is harder than 2UB. And in the second comparison, 2BB is actually harder, but WotC tend to push cards like 2UB instead.

I hope this was a bit more cogent, because I think we're talking about different things.


MR creature that costs 2UB: Duskmantle Seer. Was played in Standard: No.

MR creature that costs 2BB: Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. Was played in Standard: Standard staple (also sees play in Modern).

Only card ever printed that costs 1UUU: Cryptic Command.

Moral of the story: Don't make broad statements. WotC pushes the cards they want, regardless of the manacost.

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Last edited by felbatista on Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:40 pm 
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jedc22 wrote:
I don't know if this is the real Lili or not yet, but if it is, it's really rather situational...

Image


Erm...yea. I'd hope that isn't real. Following big Jace in terms of "Insert generic X colour abilities". The discard is ok, the -3 is pretty rough given that pretty much ends her, and that ult feels underwhelming.

In comes the "she's great if you do this" crowd, just not very exciting to me.


Hope that's not real not good abilities, again with +1 discard time for Liliana to have a rest from that one.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:22 pm 
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Tamiyo is pushed to Bant to be both more difficult to cast and to be more specific. Wizards already outlined how she had to be Bant to be how she is now.
MaRo goes into some detail why Tamiyo is 1WUG instead of something like 1UUU or UUUU or just 2 coloured and it creates different difficulties in her casting cost which Wizards believes going bant was the better option to make sure she works as is.
Though, in the end, Liliana is easier to cast with the given fake mana cost and in Wizards eyes even BBB is less restrictive and still theoretically splashable compared to forcing 3 colours.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:31 pm 
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I don't know if it's fake, but if it isn't, that Liliana would be plenty strong.

Sheesh people, Liliana of the Veil is arguably the best planeswalker in modern, and this, although being slightly less powerful and more expensive would be very playable in our environment. It's a barter in blood that sticks around after paying the cmc, and forces your opponent hand starting the next turn. I'd say it's better than obni and more or less equal to big jace in power level.
I hope it is a fake though, because it's pretty generic, and like new Emrakul, this card would not see play outside standard probably.

Really love Tamiyo btw. this is the type of random power card bant wants in this environment, even though her casting costs probably means that she won't see play anywhere else.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:43 pm 
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DJ0045 wrote:
For the Tamiyo example, the comparison would be something like 1UGW vs 1UUU, and then we'd ask which should be pushed harder at the same rarity. WotC tend to push the former, but the latter is actually harder to play. That's all I'm saying: basically WotC have it backwards, if it's based on the math.

It's not about whether BB is harder than 2BB... It's whether 2BB is harder than 2UB. And in the second comparison, 2BB is actually harder, but WotC tend to push cards like 2UB instead.
I think the point he was trying to make, and I agree with, is that comparatively the difference between playing BB or 1B is not as great as the difference between play 2BB and 2UB. BB is way harder than 1B but 2BB is not that much harder than 2UB.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:50 pm 
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For 4 mana she's worth two cards from the opponent - one discard the turn you play her, one removal like Anguished Unmaking. That the going rate for discard in this environment with Mire's Malice and Witness the End. You get some possibility she's also useful again a turn later, or flexibility on the drop effect. That's... OK. I expect my planeswalkers to be a bit more above par.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:53 pm 
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Liliana of the veil comes out T3, and is dominate in a format where you can run 4 copies in a deck. The 1 game out of 10 we end up being able to play Liliana the Alleged on curve would be nice to get a quasi-languish and start ripping cards out of hand, but prob more often than not she'd be dropping when opp has no cards in hand or the board state is such that an actual languish would be better. Veil's ultimate is sick, and can trigger quicker than Alleged's meh version. I'd say Kiora's (the PW everyone loves to hate on) ultimate is better than Liliana the Allegeds. At least you get kill up to 3 creatures and get a fight emblem with Kiora (and your octopi can block next turn). How often does anyone ultimate Sorin? (and at least his doods could block next turn). Cross your fingers and hope opp doesn't have any copies of the half dozen sweeper spells that can blow out the tokens, or a Declaration.

Like any PW, this likely fake version would be better than your average card. But as a central element to the story and this set, she's weak as hell.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:33 pm 
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Sir_Shadow wrote:
DJ0045 wrote:
For the Tamiyo example, the comparison would be something like 1UGW vs 1UUU, and then we'd ask which should be pushed harder at the same rarity. WotC tend to push the former, but the latter is actually harder to play. That's all I'm saying: basically WotC have it backwards, if it's based on the math.

It's not about whether BB is harder than 2BB... It's whether 2BB is harder than 2UB. And in the second comparison, 2BB is actually harder, but WotC tend to push cards like 2UB instead.
I think the point he was trying to make, and I agree with, is that comparatively the difference between playing BB or 1B is not as great as the difference between play 2BB and 2UB. BB is way harder than 1B but 2BB is not that much harder than 2UB.


That is the point I was trying to make, but you (possibly he) got the conclusion backwards. 2BB is much harder to account for in deck planning than 2UB assuming there is even 1 UB dual land in the meta. The math on that is fairly straightforward, and the logic is simple, you can count dual lands toward both your U and your B requirements, every dual land in the deck reduces your needs for each by 1.

At Fel, I agree that we can find counter examples, but there are many examples in both directions. The point I'm making is simpler than that: strict mana requirements are much more difficult than split ones in terms of deck planning, consequently cards with strict mana requirements, like Cryptic Command, should be more powerful, IMO, and I don't think WotC really follows that most of the time (if you think they do, then good, they are doing it right - the above point is more important to me anyway).

Either way, my little offhand comment from earlier today took on a life of its own. I didn't even have this much to say on the subject, lol.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:53 pm 
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We're prob getting Damnation

Source for Damnation: http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/14 ... nday-since


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:07 pm 
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Wouldn't that make Langush a bust for std??

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:10 pm 
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Damnation would be awesome.. still wouldn't solve the planeswalker issue for black. I want Massacre Wurm so I can aim the face damage at the Planeswalkers.

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