Flare is also your only answer to Ormendahl that does not involve you losing 9 life. Flare also is the only good answer to lumbering falls. Flare also scales better than any other 2 mana spell in the game, tied with declaration. It is an instant speed answer to certain spells/effects like auras or haste that sorcery speed won't answer.

In terms of the sheer number of removal spells I think 3 grasp + 2 declaration plus all the other usual goodies is sufficient, I think horribly awry counts as a pseudo early game removal here.

Your point about mana is very important. With this deck you have to prioritize UU, WW, and BB. Eventually you want to be able to cast all three, but how much are you willing to rely on them?
-If Vert ran all the cancels he would require BB, WW and UU all by turn 3.
-Instead, Vert ran 4 spell shrivels, reducing his reliance on UU a little at the expense of late game staying power.
-You cut the WW and instead focus on UU and BB, which I think is reasonable, but with 3 grasps I would prefer to see at least 12 swamps.
-I do have the two flares but the bulk of my removal/tempo plays only cost 1W or 1U. Try Gideon's Reproach, it is very very affordable and easy to cast and it is as effective as the tricky grasp. Grasp is much better in a vacuum where you want to remove blockers etc., but here I think reproach is excellent. The only time I really miss grasp is vs flipwalker Jace and TITI.

Flare scales well and if you clear the board and hold on to it in the late game, it is every bit as valuable as declaration. Grasp does not scale well and it needs to come online sooner in order to have utility IMO.




What you say is also true of Awry... which is why I wanted both spell shrivel and all the cancels.


I tried her, she isn't worth tapping out for. At least flip Jace is cheap enough he doesn't tap you and Avacyn has flash. With an ideal board setup Linvala is good but I almost never got the 3/3 because I needed to keep the board clear just to survive to six lands.

I value lifegain in control decks but paying six at sorcery speed to get a few points and a 5/5 body isn't worth it. I wish we had a spell that combines pulse of murasa and call to mind - is that too much to ask? Yes please, I would like to recur my confirm suspicions, gain six life, and then draw three more cards.


This is legit.

Thanks for the answer.

I agree Flare is the best out against Ormendahl and the Falls. Unfortunately I think is very unreliable in killing them, as in my experience these cards rarely attack alone (Gaea's Revenge/Plated Crusher do this way more often).

As for Gideon's Reproach, I made the experience that only being able to play it in combat is too restrictive; there are a lot of times where you need the removal pre-combat or where you kill a creature on end step. Another minor point is that Grasp gets around indestructible, which is relevant at times. I might try a configuration without Grasp and playing Flare and Reproach, but I don't think I'd like it.


About the scaling: Awry indeed scales a bit worse than Cancel, but I think it has more utility than Spell Shrivel, as you still couunter all of its targets; many of which still have impact in the late-game, while Spell Shrivel would be a sitting duck.
If I were to add Shrivel, what would be the cut for it? Maybe Broken Concentration (again, mana), but ... eh.


I haven't drawn Linvala enough to get the big picture, but I see where you're coming from. She'll probably get the axe again.

Well if we are going to get really technical about indestructability, it can be on the following cards:
Kytheon, Hero of Akros
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Nahiri's Machinations
Erebos's Titan
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Ormendahl, Profane Prince
Grasp just works via 4/4 flip Gideon, flare can hit all these targets. I have taken out Gideon in his 5/5 indestructible form several times which is always very satisfying.
I will admit that Make a Stand does favor grasp compared to reproach, but reproach comes online sooner in the white aggro matchup which I consider more important.

I think the thing about specialized removal is that it becomes better the more focused your deck is on control. Having flare as your only removal is a terrible, terrible idea. But when 90% of your deck is focused on answers you have more leeway, because you can wait for the right moment to use a specialized answer like flare.

Just try reproach, it is so easy to cast. It is a spell that really shines in the white aggro matchup because I can cast it right away. I can sometimes stabilize without a boardwipe because I start lashing right away. Against aggro decks I don't care as much about tapping out either. Against slower decks I usually wait till I have 5 mana to use lash, unless they attack me with something like tireless tracker.

When it comes to specific recommendations on what to cut, I have already posted my decklist. I run more spot removal and I also run more counterspells because I cut back on threats. I can't blame anyone for running Archangel Avacyn but I prefer not to... she can be used to immediately trade in combat but this will tap you out before your opponent's second main phase. Note that CovertGo Blue has also pursued the creatureless approach.

I also advocate cutting Declaration in Stone, but that is such a sensitive topic I am not going to say much, read the discussion in the thread above.

It's kind of funny how you mentioned the premiere card to give indestructible in your post, but did not include it in your cards to grant indestructibility: Archangel Avacyn. Grasp kills multiple creatures that Reproach wouldn't kill through an Avacyn.

I get the idea of having a varied pool of removal so you can react to mmultiple situations.
I can relate to removing a Gideon with Celestial Flare, as I have done it as well; though I needed a second removal spell to do it (he attacked with the token he made the turn prior). It's not the best way to get rid of the Gideon, though.

I actually might get behind cutting Declaration; I have not been terribly impressed with the card in this deck, as the opponent always has the time to crack the clue, since you're not pressuring his life total. Might wanna to test for that.

I totally agree that grasp is better than reproach, but is it worth the highly intensive mana cost? In a deck that already wants UU? It is better, but I don't think it is enough of a difference to justify the cost.

Declaration: Let me just compare Divine's targeted removal suite and mine:
I run 2 flares, 3 reproach, 2 bounce, 2 anguished unmaking. (9 total)
He runs: 2 flares, 2 grasp, 2 declaration, 2 anguished unmaking. (8 total)
Right now you are at: 3 grasp, 2 declaration, 2 anguished unmaking. (7 total)

I think if you cut declaration you would want to replace it with another board removal spell, and hopefully one that scales. I don't think you want to go below 7 board removal spells. We have very few options... which is why I chose flare, since it scales and it is so helpful against indestructible/hexproof.

Honestly Modulo I think you should just try my deck. I am not going to claim it is the best, you will either like it or you won't. But it is a different approach and some of the pieces work well together. If you play my deck and Divine's deck a few times you can get a feel for which card choices you like best. I am currently playing with Divine's build, which I do consider superior to the other decklists I have seen (other than mine).

Do you play on Steam? You can add me - I am HenWen (with exactly that capitalization).

This is a format without side-boarding, so if your going to push for Celestial Flare because of Gaea's Revenge & Westvale Abbey; then it must be a majority of the meta. Also, this kind of threats are usually followed by scion tokens from From Beyond & redundant creatures that power up Westvale. A Smart player will play around Flare.
1 x Reprisal
2 x Celestial Flare
3 x Horribly Awry

...was ideal in the last meta because of the prevalence of G based Ramp decks driven by Acid-Moss.

The ideal removal suite would now resemble something like this.

2 x Celestial Flare
2 x Declaration in Stone
3 x Grasp of Darkness
1 x Reprisal
2 x Anguished Unmaking
2 x Scatter to the Winds
2 x Languish
2 x Planar Outburst

Thanks for that offer. Unfortunately, I have not purchased anything on Steam yet (Magic Duels is the only game I'm playing on it), so I can't add friends. If you want to add me, I'd be glad - Steam username is DJModulo.


I was testing with -2 Declaration, -1 Linvala, -1 Grasp, +2 Flare, +2 Reproach (so yeah, I did add something to scale). Unfortunately, I liked this combination less than what I was running previously. Declaration in Stone just seems too important to the deck, even if it's sorcery speed.

My main problem with Reproach and Flare is that the opposing creatures have to be attacking for them to work; and oftentimes the opponent plays around them by just not attacking with the creatures you really need to kill; in which case the opponent won too much of a tempo advantage.
Flare makes up for this a bit by scaling, Reproach does not.

I believe that, for now, I'll revert to Vert's list or try to cut down on White in favor of Black.

Gemini - here is how I look at your removal list. That is indeed a good selection of cards to control creatures. But a control deck needs answers for every situation. A midrange deck can merely toss in the "good" removal to kill creatures, toss the "good" bombs on top, and call it a day, because you are loaded with powerful threats at the top of the curve.

But anti-creature isn't enough for control. That is why I pack in 2 bounce spells and 11 counterspells, although one of the counters is creature-only. Bounce + counter is card disadvantage, but declaration is card disadvantage too, bounce has the advantage because it is instant and can target any non-land permanent. Is bounce as good as anguished unmaking? No of course not, but we couldn't afford the life loss from 4 unmakings anyway. IMO it is really arbitrary to just pick the "good removal" and throw it into the deck without assessing what your actual needs are. Again it takes a ton of counters to make bounce good, I sometimes use it to destroy tokens or as a tempo play. Bounce is also the only way you can protect your resolved planeswalkers against Ulamog's exile ability. Removal that fits the needs of a midrange deck <> removal that fits the needs of a control deck.

As far as side-boarding, again flare is just one tool in the toolbox. 2 flare, 3 reproach, 2 bounce, 2 unmaking, 2 languish, 2 planar outburst, that is 15% of my board interaction, not including planeswalkers. You can think of a lot of situation where it sucks but over the course of the game I almost always find a good use for it.



Modulo - So your opponent simply didn't attack you? How is your opponent going to win if they don't attack? The situation you are describing hasn't happened to me in about 50 games, the only creatures that show up and do not attack are Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and Thing in The Ice. The whole "they must be attacking you" clause is a drawback in a deck that has blockers on the board. There aren't even creatures like Guttersnipe that can deal significant damage without attacking. I think you can come up with hypotheticals here but in practice no one holds back creatures when you have an empty board, they can't afford to slow down their clock.

The larger point I am trying to make here is that control is very different from midrange. Some spells that are good in midrange are still good in control, but you will have a radically different board state that encourages your opponent to attack every turn with everything. You need to pay attention to stuff like Sphinx's Tutelage, it may be a slow clock but it is faster than a control deck. And because it takes so long to win, you want answers that scale as much as possible - ramp and high end midrange will have all the time they need to cast their big threats at you. And the perfect scalability of Declaration in Stone is less necessary when you have 11 counterspells that scale plus 8 board interaction spells that scale. If the cost of scalable removal is letting my opponent draw cards I will pass, thanks. Because of the counterspells, I don't need to make such sacrifices for premium removal that is merely another answer to creatures.

Putting this whole argument into perspective, Divine has 2 board interactions that can target non-creatures, and 8 counterspells that can interact with non-creatures. I have 4 and 10, respectively, or 40% more ability to deal with troublesome threats like planeswalkers. I feel like that is a good thing in this meta.

Alright Hen; I tried your list and I have to say it's definitely a lot better than I gave it credit for; it's similarly powerful to Vert's list.

I missed some cards a lot less than I thought I would (most notably Horribly Awry, which felt underpowered at times, especially on the draw). While I still don't love Reproach, I agree it's a lot easier on the mana than Grasp (which I believe I misplayed a times as well).

The other card I was impressed with was the singleton Bone to Ash. When playing with it in Origins I felt this card was a bit underpowered, but it does what it needs to here and is a nice middle-ground between the fourth Shrivel and the third Analysis (though I think 1 is definitely the right number for it as the card is situational).

The only thing I'm trying out to differ from your list is running 2 Knight of the White Orchid instead of the bounce spells, which I haven't been impressed by (and, subsequently, +1 Plains -1 Island). I'm opting to have the Knights help on the draw (most match-ups get a lot more challenging on the draw) and be efficient bodies to threaten Aggro threats and some walkers. Please let me know what you think about this change.

I 10-0'ed with HenWen's list over the last few days.. with the only changes being

-1 Swamp +1 Inspiration
-1 Bone to Ash +1 Gideon

Gideon has won me the game about half the time, his clock is much more reliable than getting to Ob's ultimate, or watching Sorin draw lands for no damage. I also think the deck (obviously) needs more win conditions.. and playing Gideon on turn 7 with mana up to protect him is very realistic/easy to achieve.

I'm not sure I need the other Inspiration, because the deck does tend to draw pretty well.. but running out of gas is a death sentence, and I've flirted with it a few times.

I agree that Gideon's Reproach is better than Grasp here because the deck is really an Azorious deck with a black splash, so minimizing the need for black is a smarter way to go IMO. As far as Celestial Flare, I really haven't needed it yet because my sample size is small.. it's sat in my hand a lot, but it is a solid answer to a lot of problems, especially indestructible/hexproof stuff. I did get an Ormendahl. I wish the deck had a little more lifegain because I tend to let 1/1 creatures resolve, and after letting them beat on me for 5 turns, it starts to add up. I've been unable to cast Anguished Unmaking a few times because of being too low.. Ob Nixilis chipping at me doesn't help either. I love the counter magic suite.. feels good to have a solid permission deck again without the 4 mana jank and the conditional spells. Confirm Suspicions has been excellent.

Overall.. 4.5/5. Really like it. Will report back after the sample size gets larger.

Here's my list:

1 x Dispel
1 x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 x Brain in a Jar
1 x Reprisal
1 x Celestial Flare
1 x Compelling Deterrence
2 x Telling Time
2 x Grasp of Darkness
2 x Declaration in Stone
3 x Spell Shrivel
2 x Anguished Unmaking
2 x Read the Bones
1 x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 x Suppression Bonds
2 x Languish
1 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 x Confirm Suspicions
2 x Planar Outburst
1 x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1 x Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 x Linvala, the Preserver
1 x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
4 x Plains
4 x Island
4 x Swamp
2 x Shambling Vent
2 x Sunken Hollow
2 x Prairie Stream
2 x Drowned Catacomb
2 x Isolated Chapel
2 x Glacial Fortress
1 x Evolving Wilds


Might take out the Dispel for a Tamiyo's Journal; the card draw in the later part of the game is crucial, and tutoring for a specific card is important. I'll test it out; although Dispel has been decent.

Awry only feels worthwhile to me in my opening hand, and I believe its superior quality in your opening hand does not make up for being an inferior topdeck peel.

Which did you misplay - reproach or grasp?


Absolutely. It is funny how a singleton can feel so solid sometimes. I have had a miser's singleton bone to ash in there a long time and it is always useful. With 3x analysis I often found myself in situations where I didn't have time to take a turn off and draw cards. And yes that is exactly how I thought of it - I didn't quite want a 4th shrivel, didn't quite want 3rd analysis, but bone to ash helps to flesh out both roles.



I would say my 2nd bounce is near the top of my list for cuts but I haven't found a good enough replacement.

The Knight
The ideal scenario with the Knight is being on the draw and getting it in your opening hand. So you can't cast it on turn 2... you have to wait until turn 3, and this leaves you with two mana including the untapped plains. So you are ahead on land drops BUT you can't leave 3 mana open for cancel, which is muy important.

I would say you are crazy to try a bear in this deck, but I was crazy enough to test Felidar Cub for a long time, to satisfy my enchantment-hate fetish. By all means test it. The nice thing about a bear like the knight is that it is a small enough threat that opponents generally won't blow removal on it right away, so it can hold 1/1s like sylvan ranger at bay until you are ready to wipe. Also good to have a chump to protect new planeswalkers from things like manlands, hasty threats, etc.

BTW I requested to add you on Steam.

Whoops Megabeast ninja'ed me so I am doing a separate post.



I am glad it is working for you!
I already added Gideon, my 1.1 changes were -1 swamp +1 island, -1 celestial flare +1 Gideon. So we agree about the swamps and Gideon. I am going to go back and edit my original list to avoid confusion.


Lifegain - I completely agree, I wish we had Sphinx's Revelation! Back in Duels '15 I loved the Obelisk white mode for 5 life a turn. Let me know if you have ideas here, I think our lifegain options suck too much to be worth it. Just remember Shambling Vent, often the damage is inconsequential but 2 life is worth it.

One more question - how do you feel about the bounce? I don't build my decks differently for the sake of it, I feel like it helps vs planeswalkers etc., but I am amazed how few lists run bounce.

Thanks Mega (and Modulo) I really appreciate having the extra perspective from other people playing my decks.

I like the bounce spells. I think they're an important tool. Sometimes you tap out to play a planeswalker, or only have one counterspell in hand.. and you're opponent baits out the first counter only to resolve something better. Having a bounce spell lets you get a second shot at dealing with resolved threats.. and blowing out aura decks is a bonus.

Grasp, I feel like I was too impatient with it at times.



My thought process is that it's played best turn 4, as this leaves you with 3 for the counterspells of choice. Furthermore, it's much easier getting untapped WW by turn 3 rather than t2, especially if your plan for t2 is Telling Time.
Against aggro, it wants to be played t3 leaving up Gideon's Reproach.

but it went 10-0! Sounds like it should be a 5/5 that could get revised later with larger sample size.

Looking forward to seeing how you and Hen finalize the decklist. Sounds great.

@Mega - I asked you because not many seem to like the bounce! Please tell me about your swap of bone to ash for inspiration. As Modulo noted I swapped in BtA as a singleton because it bridges the gap between draw and counters. Mainly I often had problems in games where I would draw 2+ inspirations in the start of the game, since it is expensive and has no impact on the board. BtA hedges against that risk.

Also many decks like this include extra draw just to hit land drops, here we have confirm suspicions, BtA, telling time, comparative analysis, and three planeswalkers that draw you cards. But I also went to 27 lands in order to more consistently get good opening hands.

I will listen to what you have to say here though.

Modulo go ahead and test it, let me know how it goes. I certainly do not love it but I prefer small utility creatures in a deck like this to big bombs that immediately eat removal.

So *flex* I won a mirror match today after mulliganing down to 5 on the play. My opponent was playing Esper control but he tapped out on turn 3 for Read the Bones. The gods blessed me and I responded with the only 4 mana threat in the entire deck - Gideon. Gideon proceeded to beat him down and I flared his manland and countered his anguished unmaking. The moral of the story: this is why sorcery speed draw is bad people. This should have been an easy game for this guy with a 2 card advantage but poor deck design ruined him.

5 games testing streak:

Game 1) (on the draw) Win vs. Superfriends
He played a very ramp-y approach (Retreat to Kazandu, Explosive Vegetation), which led to him being a bit threat-light.
Game went on pretty long due to him being patient and not running his threats into my counterspells; while I drew very few threats (Sorin, Gideon and ObNix were in the bottom 12 cards of the library, Jace was useful for 2 turns before I had to let a Suppression Bonds targeting him resolve).

Knight vs. bounce spell: Knight came in very late, but he did everything he needed - even if he had not gotten the land on 12-13 lands. He just kept chipping away at the opponent's life total, bringing him all the way down from 26 to 8 so I could finish the game with double awakened Planar Outburst. Bounce spell would've been useless - his only nonland permanent in play was an Oath of Nissa.


Game 2) (on the play) Loss vs. Vampires
He simply had more threats than I had counters for. Him sticking a t3 Heir of Falkenrath was the nail in my coffin as I didn't draw any removal for it. I made a mistake in trying to bounce it with Jace instead of drawing the card; he ended up having the Fiery Temper in hand. My other mistake was trying to prolong the game with my Shambling Vent's lifegain, but he ended up with the Lightning Axe madnessing out a second vampire; together with a burn spell that was enough to finish me.

Knight vs. bounce spell: Never drew it; would've rather drawn the bounce spell.


Game 3) (on the play) Loss vs. Superfriends (I mulliganed to 6)
This game came down to me horribly misplaying my last move. With 5 mana open (I had played Gideon that turn), I opted to Confirm Suspicions an opposing Anguished Unmaking in my end step instead of Canceling it leaving up Celestial Flare. He had three 1/1s on the board, enough mana to make a fourth 1/1 EOT and a man-land I accounted for two seconds too late. You may have guessed that I was at 9 life.
I don't know whether I would have won with the correct play, but the game would have gone on.

Knight vs. bounce spell: Knight got me a land, but enabled his Oath of Chandra to do something useful. On the other hand, he never played something I would've wanted to bounce (maybe Ormendahl, Profane Prince later).


Game 4) (on the draw) Win vs. Humans (I mulliganed to 6)
My first hand might have been a keep, but my 6-card-hand was basically perfect. T2 Reproach a Lieutenant, t3 Spell Shrivel a Knight of the White Orchid (who would've gotten a land), t4 Gideon pumping out chump-blockers for t4 and t5 against his Stoneforge Masterwork, t6 Languish into concession.

Knight vs. bounce spell: Never drew it. Knight would've been a good blocker, bounce spell might've been decent had he cast a big threat. I'd say tie.


Game 5) (on the draw) Loss vs. Humans
I don't think I could've won this game. T2 Topan Freeblade, T3 Iroas' Champion. I decided to keep up Spell Shrivel instead of Reproaching his Chamion on his t4, which ended up being correct as he cast Nahiri afterwards, which I didn't have a different answer for. T4 I Reproached his Champion which promptly got replaced. On my t5 I decided to cast ObNix to kill his Champion (was at 8 life that turn) instead of leaving up a counterspell, which let him flood the board; I did not draw into a sweeper.

Knight vs. bounce spell: Never drew it, though I would've loved the Knight.

Modulo this is EXACTLY what I love about the deckbuilding forums, sharing experiences with others.

Also a chance for learning experiences! Like this one:

If I am reading this correctly, the bounce could have saved Jace and ended the game a lot sooner (by bouncing Bonds or by bouncing Jace directly to your hand, removing bond).

Bounce has myriad uses that may not be apparent at first:
1. Removing auras - on your permanents or enemy permanents;
2. Pure tempo - not at all bad to extend your clock vs aggro before you wipe;
3. Saving your PW - this is cheaper than a counterspell, allowing for special moves like 7 mana Ob Nix into -3 baiting a burn spell, bounce him in response to spell. Replay with full loyalty. Or 10 mana Ob nix + bounce + counter for their turn. Invaluable vs. Ulamog, the only way to "counter" his ability;
4. Reset PW loyalty. Drop Sorin, use him to kill Gideon or something, bounce him and replay him, gaining 5 loyalty in the process;
5. Destroy tokens;
6. Make Ormendahl, Profane Prince unhappy;
7. Return threats to opponent's hand so you can counter them;
8. If two creatures are attacking, bounce one and hit the other with Celestial Flare;
9. Reset enemy PW loyalty: About to ultimate? Not today. Sometimes I just ignore 3 mana Nissa since she may not be worth a counter, I will just bounce her at 7 loyalty; and
10. Force your enemy to expend extra mana in order to turn on Spell Shrivel. This is not guaranteed to work, but it usually does. If your opponent has 10 mana and casts a 4 drop, if you immediately bounce it they usually replay the threat during their turn, which will leave them with <4 mana and allow you to shrivel the threat.

Some of these may be really obvious but I am just writing some of the myriad uses of bounce spells. For most of the above roles, there is another card that can do the job better. But nothing else can do everything listed here!

That said, I would consider cutting the 2nd bounce spell... not for the knight though. If you have a testing revelation showing the knight is amazing I will read your logs but I am just not that into him.

I love game logs and I will start recording some of my own too. Last night I went 4-1 or 5-1 and my loss was due to not drawing any PW or any Confirm Suspicions in my first 30 cards. I drew something like 13 -14 land and my opponent drew only 10, I was still at parity with him for a long time, barely in control. I need 4-6 mana card advantage bombs that can put me ahead. According to my calculations (hypergeometic calculator) the odds of not drawing any of my 6 bombs in the first 30 draws are 1.2%. (Makes sad trombone noise).

TLDR: Basically I agree with you guys and I have been considering removing:
-1 island
-1 compelling deterrance

I would want to add something in the low CMC range:
1 x Gideon's Reproach
1 x Grasp of Darkness
1 x Horribly Awry

Alternatively, the third Comparative Analysis wouldn't be so bad.

I know I have dissed Awry in previous posts but that is simply because I do not consider it a good substitute for a harder counter. At this point I feel like I have all the counters I want above 2 CMC, and adding more lower down might help.

I will test +2 Awry and keep a log.

I did not think about this line (though I was thinking what would happen if I drew my second Anguished Unmaking and whether I would use it on the aura). I don't know whether it would really have fastened the game, but it would have given me more possible actions, which is never a bad thing.

I'll continue testing the Knight tomorrow, but add a bounce spell; maybe over the 27th land I'm still running.