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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 9:31 am 
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ok, that's it, i'm printing the decklist. i can no longer resist the pizza.

This deck is so going to be garbage against control in a best of three since they'll mostly just counter the 'explodes' tricks/cards. But most players aren't that great so maybe not.

Also, i can't believe I've been paired up against three goddamn control decks in a row in the fakeumite


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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 9:47 am 
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Also, i can't believe I've been paired up against three goddamn control decks in a row in the fakeumite

We are legion.

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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 9:52 am 
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stupid robot, no wonder your race is extinct


Also, Shephard Commander is looking forward to Andromeda


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 6:43 am 
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ok, that's it, i'm printing the decklist. i can no longer resist the pizza.

This deck is so going to be garbage against control in a best of three since they'll mostly just counter the 'explodes' tricks/cards. But most players aren't that great so maybe not.

Also, i can't believe I've been paired up against three goddamn control decks in a row in the fakeumite


This is interesting because control is so rare on steam ranked matches. Maybe 5%. But the matchup against midranged is good, so I am not surprised that more people pick control in a tournament.

Barney IIRC you have a tempo deck with a bunch of flash cards. You should be able to keep one threat on the board using this technique:

Flash something in during your opponent's endstep. They are forced to tap out in order to counter it, or let the threat resolve. If they do counter it, cast something during your main phase before they untap. It may seem obvious but this is why I hate playing against flash decks.

Edit: in retrospect this seems unbearably obvious, but I am just saying flash is good here.


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 7:41 am 
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Like many others before me, I tried messing around with Valor in Akros. Tried it in :r::w:, :g::w:, and :b::w: with mixed results. All that building and testing gave me the Valor blues... and then I realized I liked it best that way.

:u::w:Valor Blues:w::u:

15 Creatures
1 x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
1 x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 x Hanweir Militia Captain
2 x Rattlechains
4 x Eldrazi Skyspawner
3 x Whirler Rogue
2 x Drowner of Hope

2 Planeswalkers
1 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets

3 Enchantments
3 x Valor in Akros

10 Instants
3 x Essence Flux
2 x Reprisal
2 x Gideon's Reproach
3 x Telling Time

6 Sorceries
2 x Declaration in Stone
2 x Allied Reinforcements
2 x Rise from the Tides

24 Land
6 x Plains
6 x Island
2 x Prairie Stream
2 x Glacial Fortress
2 x Westvale Abbey
3 x Foundry of the Consuls
3 x Evolving Wilds



What I like best about this color combination is the abundance of cards that put 3+ bodies on the board in one shot. It repopulates very quickly after a board wipe, and makes for insane Valor pumps.

Most importantly, I think, it gives us a way to get a massive pump the same turn Valor hits the board, through Essence Flux. This helps mitigate what most seem to agree is the biggest weakness of Valor - that it doesn't do anything the turn you cast it. Here you can go off as a surprise attack as early as turn 5 - it's great to go T3 Skyspawner, T4 Whirler Rogue, T5 Valor + Flux on the Rogue, and stomp them out of nowhere (even better with Kytheon and Rattlechains T1 and T2). I've done similar combos in :r::w::u: (which are better with Thopter Engineer to give the Flux'd tokens haste), but a simpler mana base helps me do it more consistently in :w::u:, and cutting :r: helps me play Foundry and Abbey, which stalls opp attacks with threat of instant speed pumps and provides a life gaining win con.

I wanted to use Archangel Avacyn, because she's typically an auto include for me in :w:, but she didn't make my cut here. I like the instant speed pump + indestructible + flux target, but with so many fragile tokens (and scions to sac), her flip effect kept her on the sidelines.

I don't usually care much for Allied Reinforcements, but I like it here in small doses. It drops 2 bodies for Valor, and gives Rise from the Tides another zombie.

Rattlechains may seem a little out of place, but it's another instant speed pump for Valor and it's an evasive attacking T2 play. If opp's lacking aerial defenses, Rattlechains and Skyspawner can put the pressure on early.

Telling Time gives RftT another zombie and helps me dig for Valor - and allows me to do something with the mana I hold up for removal if no targets present themselves that turn. Baby Jace helps dig for Valor and recur my removal & flux. Big Jace gives card draw and utility with bounce, to stall a threat or put Rogue back to hand for another jumbo pump.

Rather than be honest about it and say it's a really fun deck that can absolutely Go The **** Off out of nowhere, but isn't going to beat 4c Planeswalkers or Esper Control without luck in the draw - I'm officially announcing it as a Tier 0 x Infinity Power deck; the best list you'll ever see! ...I think that's how you get feedback here ;)


Have you tried Invocation of Saint Traft? Risky, but I love it in Valor decks, more so with hard-to-block flyers. And if you can keep it alive with counters or something, it's pretty definitive. (Also trying it with Tormentor in Esper, lol)


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 11:22 am 
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I didn't test at all with St. Traft in the deck. Getting a flying 4/4 + pump during attacks sounds good, but my concerns are 2 fold. :1: my creatures are fragile, and :2: it either takes away food from RftT or cuts into my creature base.

In the case of :1:, only Drowner and Kytheon w/ 3 mana open don't die to every single removal spell - my angle is to repopulate quickly rather than protect individual creatures - so I'd have to consider St. Traft a 1 turn trick.

In the case of :2:, I would probably consider Allied Reinforcements or Rattlechains as the cards to cut for St. Traft, but I think both are more helpful in more situations. Reinforcements provides a x2 trigger for Valor / food for RftT / flashback target for flipped Jace / 2 bodies for blocking and/or getting in on the next pump attack. Rattlechains offers a T2 creature play / instant speed pump / flying body / another card to cast EoOT if I'm holding Reprisal/Reproach and no targets present themselves.

If I were to include it, I'd prob need to do a more drastic rebuild of the deck.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 4:36 pm 
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I didn't test at all with St. Traft in the deck. Getting a flying 4/4 + pump during attacks sounds good, but my concerns are 2 fold. :1: my creatures are fragile, and :2: it either takes away food from RftT or cuts into my creature base.

In the case of :1:, only Drowner and Kytheon w/ 3 mana open don't die to every single removal spell - my angle is to repopulate quickly rather than protect individual creatures - so I'd have to consider St. Traft a 1 turn trick.

In the case of :2:, I would probably consider Allied Reinforcements or Rattlechains as the cards to cut for St. Traft, but I think both are more helpful in more situations. Reinforcements provides a x2 trigger for Valor / food for RftT / flashback target for flipped Jace / 2 bodies for blocking and/or getting in on the next pump attack. Rattlechains offers a T2 creature play / instant speed pump / flying body / another card to cast EoOT if I'm holding Reprisal/Reproach and no targets present themselves.

If I were to include it, I'd prob need to do a more drastic rebuild of the deck.


Still as a 1 turn trick, is pretty powerful...it's a Firecraft + Pump for 3 mana, not bad... if opponent hasn't removal, is in problems...Firecraft+pump every turn is sick. Btw, Bishop for me it's autoinclude, it's basically as good as Tracker, and Bishop with St.Traft can be protected with the Rattles

And in worst case, opponent has to waste removal in half a Skyspawner...still 2 for one, but you probably sneaked the 4-8 or more? damage from the Traft, so not really a waste. Of course, a timely Grasp screws you...

But yes, that's already a lot of redesign, lol.

Anyways, just one advice: even if the deck revolves around Valor, I always have found that 2 is the right number...passive (in themselves) enchantments are very risky in more than couples, more so if 4 CC.
For me at least, all Valor decks work better that way, seeing 2-3 Valors in hand and 0-1 creatures is pretty depressing


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 9:29 pm 
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I thought hard about Bishop when building. I like that it gets flash or hexproof with Rattlechains, +1/+1 with Flux, and card advantage via clues. It just missed the cut because I only have 10 creatures that trigger it and 2 of those might get cut to make room for it. In an early iteration of the deck, it kept getting killed before it produced anything, so I ended up cutting it for removal. I do think I'll take turns swapping in Bishop and St. Traft for Allied Reinforcements to see if I like either option better in the current build.

I don't want to cut any Valors, and would prob go the other way and run 4 if I could. The deck Is pretty meh without it. I've done Valor builds where it's more gravy and 1 or 2 would be fine, but it's a vital protein here. If we had better enchantment tutoring, I would prob cut down, but with my current build, I want it out ASAP - and more the merrier. I'm usually pretty happy when I draw a second copy (turning lowly thopters and scions into 7/7 beaters with Rogue), and I like back ups in case I'm facing enchantment hate.

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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 12:23 pm 
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Henwen, thanks for the great advice. I read it a little late and lost 0-2. I need to rewatch my Twitch to go over the decisions I made. I was constantly having to decide to either play around counters, by main phasing flash creatures when he's tapped out, or playing around sweepers by flashing creatures on his end step, running into a counter, and then faced with dilemna A on my turn.

I think I kept choosing incorrectly but I can't play around both !


On topic, one thing that didnt help is that instead of play testing, I ended up, through boredom, playing four games with the vomiting rabbit's Valor blues deck. I went 3-1 but had tons of fun.

Game one instead of improving my board, I kept digging for Valor. I eventually gave up and won without it so it's not essential. What I LOVE About a resolved Valor is that you're constantly giving opportunities for your opponent to misplay. I'm holding up Foundry or whatever and he's doing a ton of math, must be exhausting. Anyway I really like the deck, thanks !


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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 1:00 pm 
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Omg I made a deck that someone aside from me enjoyed playing. I will cherish this moment forever. I should quit MTG now while I'm in top of the world. :cloud9:

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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 3:47 am 
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So... how exactly is Rise from the Tides performing in that deck? Seems a tad slow for what the deck's trying to do.


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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 9:33 am 
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Yeah, I had two in my hand once, with the mana to cast it and there were better options like cracking a Foundry.


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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 12:54 pm 
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I don't end up needing it often; typically the foundries, skyspawners, rogues, drowners, and fluxs are enough pump juice to do the trick. I have it in to act as extra copies of rogue/drowner (to overcome rarity restrictions), as by the time I have the mana to cast it, it should put at least 3 zombies out. It's probably win-more and could be subbed out, but I can't resist the allure of the Mega Pump. It's fun to win the occasional game when I cast it with 4+ instant/sorceries in graveyard.

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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 1:28 pm 
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I seem to always only have one or two in there when I have the mana for it


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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 2:10 pm 
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You guys are prob right. Have subbed out RftT for Oath of Gideon (flyers and allows me option to ultimate Gideon PW imediately when cast). Also swapped out Allied Reinforcements for Invocation of Saint Traft. Testing both changes now for extra gold weekend.

Other possible sub considerations are Vessel of Ephemera (more instant speed pump options) and Thopter Spy Network (card draw and every turn auto pump).

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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 3:30 pm 
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Spy network makes ZERO sense here. We can do better


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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 4:38 pm 
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Spy network makes ZERO sense here. We can do better


Not a lot, but not exactly zero sense. Rogues bring it online, tho it is both unreliable in this build and a turn killer - which I'm already dealing with to some degree for Valor.

It's not in the deck; those last two mentions are just other possible considerations off the dome. If I went with network I'd need to do a larger rebuild. Don't think it needs a larger rebuild, as I am happy with it for the most part - I guess I was more just putting it out there as a possibility.

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 10:55 am 
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My go at sky control. I apologize but i do not remember how to create the links.

3x topplegeist
4x faerie miscreant
2x rattlechains
2x bygone bishop
2x skyhunter skirmisher
2x always watching
2x invocation of saint traft
3x make a stand
2x scatter to the winds
4x spell shrivel
1x archangel of tithes
3x thunderclap wyvern
1x valor in akros
2x planar outburst
1x jace, unraveler of secrets
1x linvala, the preserver


10x plains
8x islands
2x prairie stream
2x glacial fortress
3x evolving wilds

I like make a stand for the instand speed in any form, i try and pair it with planar outburst has come in handy a few times.
Any suggestions? Something isnt right i can feel that much


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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 3:28 pm 
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My go at sky control. I apologize but i do not remember how to create the links.

3 x topplegeist
4 x faerie miscreant
2 x rattlechains
2 x bygone bishop
2 x skyhunter skirmisher
2 x always watching
2 x invocation of saint traft
3 x make a stand
2 x scatter to the winds
4 x spell shrivel
1 x archangel of tithes
3 x thunderclap wyvern
1 x valor in akros
2 x planar outburst
1 x jace, unraveler of secrets
1 x linvala, the preserver


10 x plains
8 x islands
2 x prairie stream
2 x glacial fortress
3 x evolving wilds

I like make a stand for the instand speed in any form, i try and pair it with planar outburst has come in handy a few times.
Any suggestions? Something isnt right i can feel that much


]deck[
]/deck[
(With brackets flipped of course) added it here for you.

Did you happen to be running this deck on XBone over the weekend? I played a game against someone who used something that could have been this exact deck. IIRC, the user went Rattlechains, Skyspawner, St Traft - but then I swept with Radient Flames and they couldn't recover.

I haven't really tried to build a bird deck so I'm not sure how good my advice would be. But a few things I'd say...

If you want to keep it more or less in tact:
Seems like Planar Outburst works against you. Maybe swap it for spot removal? Something cheap and/or instant speed, so you have options with holding mana for your counterspells. Maybe Reprisal, Gideon's Reproach, or Declaration in Stone?

I've seen other bird decks run Kytheon's Tactics, so that might be worth considering...

If you're open to bigger shake ups:
Your list seems to be half aggro half control, which may be causing you some trouble. It seems to want to be midrange without the beef to survive that style. If you want to focus on aggro, cut down on counters (plus the last 4 cards on your list) and add more cheap flyers + Tactics. General idea would be to get evasive flyers out quickly and pump for the win. In this type of build you don't really care that much about what your opponent is doing - the idea is to race and kill them before they can really develop a strong board presence.

If you want to go more control, cut your more expensive sorcery speed spells, add a ton more counterspells and more instant speed flying options (Dimensional Infiltrator, Foundry of the Consuls). I have a deck in my sig that uses basically only flash creatures and counterspells - it's performed really well when I've taken it online if you want to check it out for ideas.

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 3:40 pm 
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You guys are prob right. Have subbed out RftT for Oath of Gideon (flyers and allows me option to ultimate Gideon PW imediately when cast). Also swapped out Allied Reinforcements for Invocation of Saint Traft. Testing both changes now for extra gold weekend.


Played 4 games with it one of the days this weekend, and went 2-2. One of the losses was mostly do to me keeping a suspect hand after the free mulligan and trusting luck to get me by, which of course ended up being a bad idea. The other loss was vs. :g::b::c: ramp, which absolutely destroyed me. Had a bunch of lifegain (0/3 landfall wall, :g: landfall enchantment, :g: sorcery that gains a bunch of life + fetches 3 land) and played TNS on turn, then a few turns later gave it a +1/+1 counter with landfall enchantment and Languished the board. Was just brutal; really bad matchup.

Planned to play more but got distracted testing other decks I've been working on. They need to do extra gold weekend every week :D

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