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Not As Is; I'll repeat my thoughts from the original thread:

As I said in the main thread, I like this story, and while it feels weird considering what I am essentially voting on, I have to vote Yea for this story.

Oh, and I would be remiss if I didn't mention your choice for the "Not As Is" vote. Well played.

I won't pretend that it fills me with joy to vote "yea" on this story, given what that means I'm voting for.

But my feelings don't really enter into the matter. What enters into it is the story, and I think this is a good one.

So it's a (heavy-hearted) "yea" from me.

After re-reading this, I decided to vote NAI. I think, moreso than the sections between the opening and the wedding (the Ellia/Dantalion section and the Larus/Rani sections) taking up too much of the story, they both have a completely different narrative style than the rest of the story, and it makes it feel like there are three stories trying to be told here which were kind of mashed together. What I'd like to see is those sections brought more in line with the rest of the piece.

the Archivist asked for people to read and vote because this is apparently split, but it also appears to be pretty context-heavy and I'm not sure if my weighing in is appropriate. I'm happy to read the 7500 words if it'll help, but if the problems involve things I'd have to read like 4 or 5 other stories to understand it's probably best if I sit it out.

basically, is this split on continuity grounds or writing grounds? the latter I can weigh in with informed opinions, the former I can't. I don't want to read people's analyses to avoid shading my own interpretations, but a brief yes/no would help.

Writing grounds; I speak for myself, but I think Luna's objections are similar to mine.

alright, then I'll check it out.

that didn't take that long.

so ok. I think I see why people are saying NAI, and I'm inclined to agree. I think that, from the point where the wedding begins, it's pretty good. there's some unnecessary words and sentences here and there, and it could certainly be tightened, but it's strong. but up until then? it was a slog getting to that point, and there were multiple times I had to convince myself to keep reading. the first couple sections feel remarkably flat. the intro I think has a lot of good ideas to it but the prose feel really awkward. but more problematic, to me, is the conversation between Dantalion and Ellia. it's so... stilted? these are two of the M:EM's premiere villains from what I've been told, and they come off as barely two-dimensional. that sounds harsh. sorry. but like, the dialogue feels like "hi I am evil" "yes, so am I. here is an exposition dump." "I see. but can you confirm that you are evil." "yes, here is a nasty thing that an evil person would say." that sounds even harsher. I am not good at dialing back harshness. it's ok, Tevish and I go way back, they know I love them. it also doesn't help that, as I said, the first and third sections are also fairly awkward (although not to the same degree) which sets up the expectation that the entire piece is going to follow that sort of bland, stilted writing. which it sort of does, but in a way that I think becomes something that works. like, later sections are still pretty dry and matter-of-fact, but as some other people mention, that comes off as shock. it fits. it works for the later parts, but not for the earlier ones.

so I think I'll probably join the NAI crowd with a request for a significant rewrite of the Dantalion-Ellia section and preferably some polish and prune work on the other pre-wedding sections too. and really the whole thing, you can never polish too much so if you're doing it anyway might as well hit it all, but once things start happening it needs it a lot less.

sorry Tevish, you know I still love you.

Alright, having collected a good deal of NAI, I have to think about how to address them

Huey: The opening scenes are too long compared to the rest of the story
Luna: The opening scenes are too different from the rest of the story
Razor: Dantalion and Ellia's scene is too flat, the other opening scenes too

I really struggle with thinking of how to address Luna's complaint because, well, those are scenes from the points of view of Skogul and Dantalion, beings with different outlooks on reality to whom I tend to apply different voices or at least strategies of narration. And perhaps I've done that poorly but I don't think those are scenes I can afford to cut. I was considering it, after all there is the adage that you're done not when there's nothing left to add but when there's nothing you can take away. Perhaps Skogul's scene could be adequately explained in the first scene of the wedding, where Larus and Rani briefly talk before the ceremony. We'd miss why Rani is in Rettrborg (Larus I assume would come off as less of an anomoly) though, and also who the valkyrie Marina recognizes as one in the end is since she doesn't seem to catch Skogul's name. For now I'd like to keep it but if it's really killing the flow it can be dumped. The Ellia and Dantalion scene that establishes why and how the heck Dantalion can be here, and beyond that why ellia shows in the final scene... I think even I'd be lost without having an establishing scene.

Instead, I think I'm going to go back to my original outline -- the arrival of the guests was going to be attended with another scene, one where Dantalion attempted to confront and manipulate Marina only to find it a no sell. I cut it because I could think of no good reason he'd attempt that and not attack (one way or another) immediately after, but what we lost was also a "zoomed in" scene at the point in the narrative that most people seem to have trouble with: the opening four scenes. So while that plot turn is staying cut, I think I'll write an extention to the greeting scene where Marina actually talks to someone (Probably Aria both for narrative reasons -- aria gets a PoV scene later -- and the simple reason that aria is the least threatening of Illarion's guests) so that I can actually get some dialogue and introspection, which seems to be missing.

And I'd like opinions (From both the NAI voters and anyone else) on whether or not the Skogul scene ought to be cut entirely.

Since Tevish has already decided to work on this a little more, I'll go ahead and vote NAI, even though I was originally going to vote yea. Just to seal the idea, I guess.

I'm not certain the Skogul thing adds much besides introducing us to characters who are important later in the story, Tevish. But again - this is YOUR story. Don't be afraid to tell it how you want it to be told.

My only problem with the story mechanically is the pacing. Everything else is personal and doesn't really have any bearing on my vote. Still, you've got a good one here, Tevish.

I wouldn't cut the whole scene off; I think it could be reworked to be about as long as the other two introductory sequences without losing the whole characterization for Skogul and Larus.

Rereading the Ellia and Dantalion section after razor's comment I start noticing that its dialogue could be polished; in particular, Ellia doesn't need to reveal all the Ring's history to Dantalion and the sentence "I thought I recognized a psychic presence that ought to be otherwise extinct in the multiverse" sounds a bit heavy. Maybe the dialogue could stand losing a bit of weight in favor of nonverbal messages (as Ellia replying to Dantalion's "I shall keep my secrets" with a skeptical/condescending look), but I'm afraid Ellia and Dantalion both tend to be a bit long-winded, don't they?

Since this is getting revamped, i'll wait, though, I wanted to say that i'm enjoying 'parts unknown'- It's very well written- The textures are lovely. You are good with human intertaction and emotional tuggings.

Hoo boy. I think you may have taken the wrong message away, Tevish. Let me go through this blow-by-blow.


Yes, and I appreciate that each perspective brings with it a change in narrative, but there's a big difference we're talking about here. I think most everyone agrees that from the wedding (or at least, the gathering for the wedding) onward, things are fine. But take a look at some of the scenes there. The action scene with Dantalion is different from the pre-wedding scene, and that is different from the post-funeral scene with Ellia, and that is different from the funeral scene. They all seem to fit together cohesively, though. Comparing Ellia's two scenes really shows just how different a voice you're using, and one of these things don't feel like they belong. I said before that the Ellia/Dantalion scene was too filled with Dialogue, and maybe razor is right in that it's flat? I don't really know how to tell, myself. But it's obvious that there's some deeper style present from wedding onwards that isn't there in that scene.

The Skogul scene has other issues entirely, where I feel it's trying to tell a second (or third depending on how you squint) story that's just there to say why and not necessarily who (I'll get to that in a minute). Honestly I never thought of it as "the Skogul scene" because she doesn't really seem like the protagonist for that scene; it always felt like she was the secondary to bounce off of Larus first and then Rani/Rangrid.

The very first scene with Illarion and Marina I feel are fine, but half the problem is they set both the mood and the style for the piece, which it eventually returns to with the wedding, but in-between has completely different styles and moods and seems only tangentially related to the story at the heart of it.


First off: No. Don't cut them out. I wasn't saying they were unnecessary to the plot, but that they don't feel like they're in line with the rest of the story.


Here's the thing:

• I barely know why Rani is in Rettrborg as it is
• Larus is as much an anomaly to me now as he would be if you cut the scene
• I had no idea that the vallkyrie in the funeral scene was Skogul

So you've failed on all three accounts.

Here's what I know: Rani has been "bringing light to the dark places" and has run into Skoll the Suneater, which by context I assume was on an island not far from Rettrborg and which I think happened at some point in The Ring. Larus is some prince and has some relationship with Skogul if no other valkyrie. The valkyrie in the funeral scene had wings.

The biggest problem, I feel, is that I don't really remember anything about Aralheim and this story didn't try to clue me in on it. If I didn't have at least a tiny memory of the dossier from way back when I would even be lost as to what Builders were. The problem then becomes, story-wise, that the Skogul scene is too distracting. It tells me why Larus and Rani end up at the wedding but not who they are. If I hadn't read Rangridsaga I wouldn't know who she is and I don't remember if I've ever seen Larus before. I'm sitting here trying to tease information out of these scraps and meanwhile missing the bigger context of the wedding.


The Ellia/Dantalion scene needs adding to if anything. Less adding dialogue and more adding atmosphere. Which way is Ellia facing? Is she just standing there in the dark or is she working on something? Is Dantalion in another body, or in his wormy state? What time of day is it, on what plane (I don't think you ever even mention if they're on Aralheim at the time)? Is there something going on behind the scenes? Maybe some of the dialogue could be reworked, because I think razor hits some good points on that, but its place in the story is essential.



Here's something I've wondered since reading Phantoms: why didn't Dantalion just infect someone? Specifically, why did he turn to "attack everyone in my mech" mode rather than just infecting Marina before the wedding? Not that I think there should be that much of a change, but it was weird after seeing him in action elsewhere.

As for the extension, I'll withhold judgement on that until I see it. I don't know what exactly you intend, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.


No. It needs to be reworked, but I don't think it needs to be cut.

yeah, I wouldn't cut any of the three opening scenes. I just feel like, as someone (Huey?) said, you started with the ending and the setup bits didn't get the love they needed. in the first scene, I'd mainly try to polish prose so that the emotion comes through. in the second, I'd rework dialogue to feel more natural and, as Luna said, more atmosphere could help too. in the third I agree with others that there's a lot of unnecessary distracting detail, so I'd dig down into what makes that scene important and who those characters are and try to highlight those things.

to be honest, as someone who actually knows nothing about Aralheim (besides that your set about it included snow mana so it's probably cold) I didn't really feel like that was a barrier in and of itself. I didn't even really feel like not knowing Illarion was a problem, although I did have to deal with the fact that my brain kept replacing him with Illidan Stormrage, which makes a lot of things confusing. but generally, I felt like the story did a good enough job telling me who Larus and Rani are, at least to the extent I needed to know in order to follow the plot. I agree with Luna, though, that the whole aside about Skoll the Suneater is super confusing. when the battle scene happened and a wolf attacked Dantallion, I assumed it was the same thing, because why else would you spend so much time setting it up? I get that it's to show that Rani's been doin' thangs, but that can be accomplished with a simple "how've you been?" "oh, you know, just killin' frost giants" exchange and boom Anton Chekhov remains happy.

First off, thanks for the expanded commentary. That tells me what I really ought to do with the Rani segment, at the very least (EDIT: Have done. I've also done a first pass of the ellia opening scene but it needs a second.)


The key lies in background work for Phantoms that I think never really saw the light of day, leaving matters to faint implications. In the prologue, he basically asks Sorinne for her permission (This was back in the voting period. If she'd refused he would have killed her before using her corpse as a bone-and-meat mech for the rest of the story) while in the final fight, after being driven out of her, he fights in his natural form rather than trying to infest Mattias or Illyria. Maybe he fears another Black Ward, though, it's not abundantly clear why. The basic idea was that infestation isn't clean, pretty, or super-reliable. And furthermore as can be seen from the fact that Sorinne acts pretty weird, I doubt an infested person would really pass the muster of someone who knew said person. Even if that's not enough of a problem, he'd have had to get her alone, far enough from others that nobody would hear a scream, and with a change of clothes accessible -- not something he had a good opportunity for. I also find it likely that Ellia didn't tell him how the ring would show itself, so he was casing the docks until the appointed day at which point "They're setting up for a wedding? Oh, I see...."

I gave the edit a quick re-read and, while I think the Ellia/Dantalion section has drastically improved, and I noticed a few other touches that helped, I can't help but feel you haven't finished the edits yet; partly because the Skogul section remains unchanged, and partly because of this line at the end of the first wedding section:


So, for the moment, I'm staying on my NAI vote.

(Rani no longer tells a story, it goes to narration, leaving any details for a future story)


100% Accurate.

Does it? I'll admit I mostly skimmed over the piece, but I had thought she still mentioned Skoll.

*quickly goes and looks*

Oh, I see.


That response made me laugh, and I think it's because it sounds like you're making an innuendo. Is that where the sentence is supposed to end, then, or...?

No, you're 100% accurate that a live insertion point means I'm not done.