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Should we trust our Instinct?
Poll ended at Mon May 02, 2016 4:34 pm
Yea: 86%  86%  [ 6 ]
Nay: 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Not As Is: 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Abstain: 14%  14%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 7
Total voters : 7
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 Post subject: [Vote] [Story] Instinct
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 4:34 pm 
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Title: Instinct
Author: RavenoftheBlack
Status: Public

Instinct


Last edited by RavenoftheBlack on Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:14 am 
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I just noticed I voted for this piece and I never commented on it.

This piece may be the first where we have a deep characterization of Daneera. We knew what she does and how she behaves, but before this point I don't recall having a chance to look at the world with her eyes, being usually busy fighting for Nature (a classic occupation for a Green character) or facing the Rulus (a direct consequence of her determined and idealistic nature, as well as a rotten luck), but now we see her moving in her 'habitat', acting according to her emotions and desires rather than reacting to external agents as naughty poachers and crabby genocidal planeswalkers, and I must say I like her a lot! She has a multifaceted identity and relationship with the wilderness-civilization dichotomy, and a healthy and spontaneous connection to her inner self that could be one of the few Green traits that are unrelated to 'flora&fauna' trite themes. (as Keeper would put it, 'blue characters are often related to knowledge, insight, trickery and subtlety, while green ones... really like trees?')

So yeah, I enjoyed this piece and I look forward to read more of her. Thank you for sharing, Raven!

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:44 pm 
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As I mentioned on the original thread, I am a big, big fan of this story, so it's an enthusiastic "yea" from me!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:12 pm 
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This piece may be the first where we have a deep characterization of Daneera. We knew what she does and how she behaves, but before this point I don't recall having a chance to look at the world with her eyes, being usually busy fighting for Nature (a classic occupation for a Green character) or facing the Rulus (a direct consequence of her determined and idealistic nature, as well as a rotten luck), but now we see her moving in her 'habitat', acting according to her emotions and desires rather than reacting to external agents as naughty poachers and crabby genocidal planeswalkers, and I must say I like her a lot! She has a multifaceted identity and relationship with the wilderness-civilization dichotomy, and a healthy and spontaneous connection to her inner self that could be one of the few Green traits that are unrelated to 'flora&fauna' trite themes. (as Keeper would put it, 'blue characters are often related to knowledge, insight, trickery and subtlety, while green ones... really like trees?')

I'm glad you liked Daneera and this story! While I hardly consider myself a philosopher, I do enjoy these pieces where I'm able to delve into the philosophy of my characters and the way they perceive the world(s) around them. I did a lot with and specifically non- philosophy in "Planes of the Dual-Walkers," and it was something that a number of people seemed to like. I did some philosophical stuff in WotW with Kahr and with Penelophine, and obviously there was that Raiker piece I did a while back, and I enjoyed all of that. So, with this story, while I don't consider it particularly philosophical, I did want to explore Daneera's unique worldview as she explored her story. I was happy with the result, and I'm glad other people seem to be, too!

So yeah, I enjoyed this piece and I look forward to read more of her. Thank you for sharing, Raven!

Thank you!

As I mentioned on the original thread, I am a big, big fan of this story, so it's an enthusiastic "yea" from me!

:thumbsup:


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:35 pm 
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Quote:
these human towns were frequently raided by forces from the planes to the east

I didn't know there was a planar gateway on Morvata.

Quote:
The planeswalker’s second stop was a small establishment called the Sowrd and Stallion, the local inn. Daneera assumed it had been a misspelling on the sign, as she knew that many people in Morvata could not read or write, but the inn’s owner clearly pronounced it “sow rd” when she greeted Daneera.

While I like this line, I feel it calls unnecessary attention to the fact this is written in English, especially when your liberally sprinkling about uncommon a characters like in Zǎri. I'm not sure if it really contributes anything, unless Daneera's dismissal of the problem as a subtle jab at the very problem of language in the multiverse.

Quote:
She scrubbed them clean in the lukewarm water until they were clean enough for her tastes,

The repetition of "clean" here is a bit awkward. I'd recommend dropping the first instance of the word.

Quote:
It the switched its tactic and tried jerk them free one at a time,

I think the "the" there was missed in editing.

Quote:
Daneera climbed up to her knees and moved over to him,

I don't know what exactly happened here, because there was no indication prior to this line that Daneera and Kerik had been anything other than standing.

Quote:
The question is, Kerik, are you just going to watch as I try to make friends with “It,” or are “you” going to be making friends with me?

Single quotation marks are probably more correct for this line, being in dialogue.

So, in short I have to say I liked this. There were the obvious "that's so Raven" moments sprinkled throughout, like what you did with the Runeclaw Bear, but there were some overall effects that I feel may have detracted from the piece. Like, I know the issue of measurement in feet has been raised with you before and the answer was somewhere along the lines of "there isn't really a good substitution", but in this story you broach the thorny issues of both measurement being in feet and language being in English in quick succession after pointing out how coinage differs from plane to plane and how difficult it is to cash them in. I would, again, almost think it was deliberate as some sort of subtle jab at the concepts with the way Daneera herself eschews all three concepts in favor of following her heart, but I'm still not convinced they do the story any favors since for the rest of it both before and after it takes itself fairly seriously.

On the topic of Daneera following her heart, I want to applaud you for making a "girl character falls in love" story go beyond just that. Between Romeo and Juliette (which I decided to drop), and Returning My Sister's Face (which I just read), I've had quite enough of stories where a man and woman fall in love at the sight of one another for a while. Seeing how Daneera handled her desires was interesting, and I liked how you tied it to motherhood with the mother wolf and with Lem. It felt very thematic.

However, there were two things that got on my nerves in the story. The first is the, in my opinion, overabundance of the word "instinct". It just seemed to pop up far too often and frequently. The second was the "twist" was given away before Daneera ever met Kerik. I don't know if that was your intention, but it was obvious to me pretty much as soon as Daneera began tracking him, and I kept wondering if she wasn't just that thick to not get it herself. It was kind of unbearable watching her being just the picture of innocence while also, assumedly, **** his brains out.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:03 pm 
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@Luna: Thanks for reading!

Quote:
these human towns were frequently raided by forces from the planes to the east

I didn't know there was a planar gateway on Morvata.

D'oh!

Quote:
The planeswalker’s second stop was a small establishment called the Sowrd and Stallion, the local inn. Daneera assumed it had been a misspelling on the sign, as she knew that many people in Morvata could not read or write, but the inn’s owner clearly pronounced it “sow rd” when she greeted Daneera.

While I like this line, I feel it calls unnecessary attention to the fact this is written in English, especially when your liberally sprinkling about uncommon a characters like in Zǎri. I'm not sure if it really contributes anything, unless Daneera's dismissal of the problem as a subtle jab at the very problem of language in the multiverse.

I suppose I more meant it to illustrate the sort of people who live in Zǎri. They are simple people, who would rather incorporate a mistake into their daily lives than fix it or learn from it.

Quote:
She scrubbed them clean in the lukewarm water until they were clean enough for her tastes,

The repetition of "clean" here is a bit awkward. I'd recommend dropping the first instance of the word.

Good point. How would "good enough" sound for the second one?

Quote:
It the switched its tactic and tried jerk them free one at a time,

I think the "the" there was missed in editing.

I think that was supposed to be a "then" rather than a "the."

Quote:
Daneera climbed up to her knees and moved over to him,

I don't know what exactly happened here, because there was no indication prior to this line that Daneera and Kerik had been anything other than standing.

Near the beginning of that conversation, when Daneera first comes back, there is a line that says "Kerik sighed and slumped down to sit in the grass. Daneera joined him." So they are both sitting on the grass at that point.

Quote:
The question is, Kerik, are you just going to watch as I try to make friends with “It,” or are “you” going to be making friends with me?

Single quotation marks are probably more correct for this line, being in dialogue.

Also a good point. I'll fix.

So, in short I have to say I liked this. There were the obvious "that's so Raven" moments sprinkled throughout, like what you did with the Runeclaw Bear,

I'm glad you liked it!

but there were some overall effects that I feel may have detracted from the piece. Like, I know the issue of measurement in feet has been raised with you before and the answer was somewhere along the lines of "there isn't really a good substitution", but in this story you broach the thorny issues of both measurement being in feet and language being in English in quick succession after pointing out how coinage differs from plane to plane and how difficult it is to cash them in. I would, again, almost think it was deliberate as some sort of subtle jab at the concepts with the way Daneera herself eschews all three concepts in favor of following her heart, but I'm still not convinced they do the story any favors since for the rest of it both before and after it takes itself fairly seriously.

I mean, there really isn't a good solution, but ultimately it comes down to the fact that I disagree with the premise. I mean, don't get me wrong, if it breaks emersion for you, than it's definitely a thing, but it doesn't for me. Like, at all. I have never in my life read any fantasy piece that mentioned things like measurements and I thought "wait, that doesn't make sense." Because, taken to its logical conclusion, NO measure is possible. People can't weigh pounds, ounces, kilograms, or even stone. Distances can't be measured in miles, kilometers, or leagues (paces are probably still okay.) Things can't be inches, feet, centimeters, or probably even cubits long. Personally, I would rather give my readers something that they can visualize clearly and quickly rather than try to invent terminology that has no context. Sure, I could say Kerik's place is 120 livets from town, whose walls a 60 vren tall and 4 dareths thick, but how does that help? The only other solution I can think of is simply not to mention it, which can certainly work in some situations, but like I said, I want people visualizing my stuff if possible.

But like I said, to each our own. If it bothers you, I'm sorry, and naturally if it breaks emersion enough that you don't want it in the Archive, you can always vote No or NAI. Naturally, we all need to vote based on our own opinions.

On the topic of Daneera following her heart, I want to applaud you for making a "girl character falls in love" story go beyond just that. Between Romeo and Juliette (which I decided to drop), and Returning My Sister's Face (which I just read), I've had quite enough of stories where a man and woman fall in love at the sight of one another for a while. Seeing how Daneera handled her desires was interesting, and I liked how you tied it to motherhood with the mother wolf and with Lem. It felt very thematic.

Thanks! Yeah, this was a major concern of mine while writing this story. I also think it's very telling that while Kerik tells Daneera that he loves her, we never hear Daneera say it. We see her develop feelings for him, and we see her wanting to be with him, but she never says it, and she may have a reason. Basically, Daneera did not start her "hunt" looking for a husband. She wants a mate, pure and simple, and judging from what we get from her in the opening scene, it seems to be more about a child than anything else. Where that leads, though, we have yet to see.

However, there were two things that got on my nerves in the story. The first is the, in my opinion, overabundance of the word "instinct". It just seemed to pop up far too often and frequently.

That could well be. The word shows up 13 times in the story, not counting the title. Admittedly, five of them are in the last section, which certainly accounts for the frequency you mention.

The second was the "twist" was given away before Daneera ever met Kerik. I don't know if that was your intention, but it was obvious to me pretty much as soon as Daneera began tracking him, and I kept wondering if she wasn't just that thick to not get it herself. It was kind of unbearable watching her being just the picture of innocence while also, assumedly, **** his brains out.

Wait, it was? Hmm. I mean, it's by no means the most cunning twist I've ever given, and Brentain mentioned that he was annoyed that Daneera didn't figure it out when she saw the manacles, but you seriously knew he was a werewolf before she even met him? Wow.

Okay, well, can't win them all, I guess. :(

Oh, also, I think they only slept together...twice? I think just twice before the attack. The week it rained and the week after. But as I said, I think partly Daneera just didn't want to believe.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:27 pm 
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Quote:
She scrubbed them clean in the lukewarm water until they were clean enough for her tastes,

The repetition of "clean" here is a bit awkward. I'd recommend dropping the first instance of the word.

Good point. How would "good enough" sound for the second one?

I just meant that changing the line to "She scrubbed them in the lukewarm water until they were clean enough for her tastes" would work fine, but if you want that extra word, I won't stop you.

Quote:
Daneera climbed up to her knees and moved over to him,

I don't know what exactly happened here, because there was no indication prior to this line that Daneera and Kerik had been anything other than standing.

Near the beginning of that conversation, when Daneera first comes back, there is a line that says "Kerik sighed and slumped down to sit in the grass. Daneera joined him." So they are both sitting on the grass at that point.

I must have missed that. I was picking up and putting down the story the whole day as work demanded.

but there were some overall effects that I feel may have detracted from the piece. Like, I know the issue of measurement in feet has been raised with you before and the answer was somewhere along the lines of "there isn't really a good substitution", but in this story you broach the thorny issues of both measurement being in feet and language being in English in quick succession after pointing out how coinage differs from plane to plane and how difficult it is to cash them in. I would, again, almost think it was deliberate as some sort of subtle jab at the concepts with the way Daneera herself eschews all three concepts in favor of following her heart, but I'm still not convinced they do the story any favors since for the rest of it both before and after it takes itself fairly seriously.

I mean, there really isn't a good solution, but ultimately it comes down to the fact that I disagree with the premise. I mean, don't get me wrong, if it breaks emersion for you, than it's definitely a thing, but it doesn't for me. Like, at all. I have never in my life read any fantasy piece that mentioned things like measurements and I thought "wait, that doesn't make sense." Because, taken to its logical conclusion, NO measure is possible. People can't weigh pounds, ounces, kilograms, or even stone. Distances can't be measured in miles, kilometers, or leagues (paces are probably still okay.) Things can't be inches, feet, centimeters, or probably even cubits long. Personally, I would rather give my readers something that they can visualize clearly and quickly rather than try to invent terminology that has no context. Sure, I could say Kerik's place is 120 livets from town, whose walls a 60 vren tall and 4 dareths thick, but how does that help? The only other solution I can think of is simply not to mention it, which can certainly work in some situations, but like I said, I want people visualizing my stuff if possible.

But like I said, to each our own. If it bothers you, I'm sorry, and naturally if it breaks emersion enough that you don't want it in the Archive, you can always vote No or NAI. Naturally, we all need to vote based on our own opinions.

I don't think it's really big enough of an issue to raise a NAI vote myself, but I thought I would mention it because it did become noticeable to me. I did say I liked the Sowrd and Stallion line, and I've come across a few stories that used that joke before (Undertale most recently, and I think somewhere in Discworld). The problem I feel comes from the fact that you use both opposing sides in the first act. An easy way to mitigate it that I can think of is to change the blacksmith's husband's description from "six feet tall" to "a head taller than Daneera" or whatever (I don't know how tall Daneera is supposed to be).

The second was the "twist" was given away before Daneera ever met Kerik. I don't know if that was your intention, but it was obvious to me pretty much as soon as Daneera began tracking him, and I kept wondering if she wasn't just that thick to not get it herself. It was kind of unbearable watching her being just the picture of innocence while also, assumedly, **** his brains out.

Wait, it was? Hmm. I mean, it's by no means the most cunning twist I've ever given, and Brentain mentioned that he was annoyed that Daneera didn't figure it out when she saw the manacles, but you seriously knew he was a werewolf before she even met him? Wow.

Okay, well, can't win them all, I guess. :(

Oh, also, I think they only slept together...twice? I think just twice before the attack. The week it rained and the week after. But as I said, I think partly Daneera just didn't want to believe.

You mention that vampirism and lycanthropy was not unheard of in Morvata, and then immediately introduce a wild woodsman with "something primal within him". Just a few paragraphs later his tracks disappearing and reappearing make it abundantly clear what we're dealing with, so it was never a twist or mystery.





Oh, and I still imagine Daneera is an absolute *beast* in bed.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:08 pm 
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The repetition of "clean" here is a bit awkward. I'd recommend dropping the first instance of the word.

Good point. How would "good enough" sound for the second one?

I just meant that changing the line to "She scrubbed them in the lukewarm water until they were clean enough for her tastes" would work fine, but if you want that extra word, I won't stop you.

No, yours is better. Somehow, I missed when you said to drop the first instance of the word, and for some reason read it as drop one instance of the word.

I don't know what exactly happened here, because there was no indication prior to this line that Daneera and Kerik had been anything other than standing.

Near the beginning of that conversation, when Daneera first comes back, there is a line that says "Kerik sighed and slumped down to sit in the grass. Daneera joined him." So they are both sitting on the grass at that point.

I must have missed that. I was picking up and putting down the story the whole day as work demanded.

It is a long scene. You probably weren't the only one.

On a semi-related note, this sort of thing is definitely something I've done before, especially in scenes where people are getting up, sitting down, or moving around a lot. When edits get made or something, it can screw up an entire sequence. I've had characters draw their sword, for instance, and then a few seconds later, draw it again.

I tell you, it's a good job I proofread. I mean, these are the mistakes you guys see AFTER I proofread my stuff. You don't want to see what I do to these poor stories before you see them...

I don't think it's really big enough of an issue to raise a NAI vote myself, but I thought I would mention it because it did become noticeable to me. I did say I liked the Sowrd and Stallion line, and I've come across a few stories that used that joke before (Undertale most recently, and I think somewhere in Discworld). The problem I feel comes from the fact that you use both opposing sides in the first act. An easy way to mitigate it that I can think of is to change the blacksmith's husband's description from "six feet tall" to "a head taller than Daneera" or whatever (I don't know how tall Daneera is supposed to be).

Really? I thought I was being original... :(

The second was the "twist" was given away before Daneera ever met Kerik. I don't know if that was your intention, but it was obvious to me pretty much as soon as Daneera began tracking him, and I kept wondering if she wasn't just that thick to not get it herself. It was kind of unbearable watching her being just the picture of innocence while also, assumedly, **** his brains out.

Wait, it was? Hmm. I mean, it's by no means the most cunning twist I've ever given, and Brentain mentioned that he was annoyed that Daneera didn't figure it out when she saw the manacles, but you seriously knew he was a werewolf before she even met him? Wow.

Okay, well, can't win them all, I guess. :(

Oh, also, I think they only slept together...twice? I think just twice before the attack. The week it rained and the week after. But as I said, I think partly Daneera just didn't want to believe.

You mention that vampirism and lycanthropy was not unheard of in Morvata, and then immediately introduce a wild woodsman with "something primal within him". Just a few paragraphs later his tracks disappearing and reappearing make it abundantly clear what we're dealing with, so it was never a twist or mystery.

He could have been a vampire...

:(

And besides, in the same paragraph that I mentioned vampirism and lycanthropy, I also mention hydras and feral brushwaggs, and you didn't suspect he was one of them! :paranoid:

Just kidding. Sorry there was no mystery for you!


Oh, and I still imagine Daneera is an absolute *beast* in bed.

I'll leave it up to Keeper to imagine what M:EM characters are like in bed, but yeah, I'd expect Daneera to have something of a *wild* side.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:26 pm 
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Dirty like a clean shave in a dark room.

The good dirty.
The dirty that wont quit
the dirty where mine eyes
had to spit
children of contentment
like a classic wit
tears nearly dripping slick
held back with fear
of softness


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:51 pm 
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I have edited the piece to fix the typos Luna pointed out. Thanks, Luna!


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