That's a straw man; all I'm trying to do is give solid advice for simic, as I see it; I have no business telling him or you to follow up on it . And no it isn't boring, but neither is playing a sleek simic tempo list. It's alot of fun in fact.

Not a straw man...just simple truth. You disagree with how he made it, gave your inputs, I gave mine.

Agree to disagree, or not.

Thanks for comments y'all.

@Nizz: I'd simplify the mana base if Woodland Wanderer wasn't winning me game 75% of the time when I draw him. Seriously.. the card has been performing amazingly well. Skyrider Elf hasn't really (perhaps proving the evil DJ0045 right) but having it able to survive sweepers has come up. If I were to cut a card right now, it'd be the elf. I like the Skyline Cascade idea.. might try that. As far as thief goes.. I don't know if I can make thief work without altering the deck to oblivion. I'd need more bounce, more tapping and more spells like Wildsize to really let it work. Thief was in my original list, but it got cut bc it was too much trouble to get through the opponent's board, and not enough damage when it got there. It's a resource intensive card. I'd love to sneak in some Spell Shrivels for anti-sweeper tech.. maybe the Elves can be counter spells. Adverse Conditions doesn't do enough IMO. It was in Hakeem's OG list and I didn't like it then and I don't like it now. Four mana, doesn't affect the board permanently, often takes my whole turn to cast it. I'd just rather slam a Woodland Wanderer and say 'Deal with this or die.'

@Rabs: When modifying the deck.. I was tempted by Gaea repeatedly. I'd love to fit it in the list more than any other card. I don't get why you're not high on the Gnarlid.. he has proved to be pretty solid. When I first saw the card I was like 'ugh.. that thing sucks!' But watching Hakeem play it, having him play it against me in a few decks, and playing it myself.. I'm a believer. It gets in for a bunch of damage.. at least 6 each game if played on turn 2.. but 9 is common as well. Think about it: Turn 2 Gnarlid, opponent plays a blocker, turn 3 Lynx, Gnarlid gets in for three, opponent plays a another blocker, Turn 4 Krasis, Gnarlid gets another three. Gnarlid also lets you really punish the mosstards bc he kills their Jaddi Offshoots and makes them pay harder for taking a turn off to moss by bringing more damage. I like Welkin Tern and Skyspawner.. but I wouldn't put them both in, bc it opens you up to getting blown out by Twin Bolt.. losing your turn 2 and 3 play. I really don't want to open up a weakness to RDW.. which is a matchup this deck is strong against. I could see cutting Elves for Skyspawners.. but I don't know what I'd cut for Gaea. Maybe Woodland Bellower? That card has been pretty good though.. I dunno. I like the deck being tall.. not just bc I'm a Timmy.. but because it survives sweepers. Having big butts has allowed me to not have to run counterspells bc I'm not that scared of Radiant Flames/Languish. I'd like it to stay that way.. instead of going all in on the army of Grizzly Bears and Hill Giants.

The only time the checklands have been bad, was when they were the only thing in my opening hand (which has happened a few times). It cost me a turn of tempo.. but in a format this slow.. there's not a lot of strategies that can punish me for it. But most of the time (especially since adding the 25th land) everything is coming in untapped.

For clarification, this is how I want a duels tempodeck to go:

T2 2/2 flier. T3 hit for 2, hold up Krasis; eot tap his blocker/ambush his goblin. T4 hit for 5, play untapped land pass turn; EOT tap both his blockers with Adverse Conditions. t5 hit for 6; opponent at 7 life and has no blockers. Go ahead and whipe boy; I'll find the last 7 with fliers / flash dudes / gaea's revenge. If you whipe maybe i'll play Conditions to make a scion end of turn and Jolly Green Giant you out t6.

Now you don't always get the nut draw, but I want the decks' plays to get as close to this as possible each game. Why would I timmy it up and get eaten by ramp instead?

This is the archetype that I play the most and my deck list is always evolving. I will say, though, that Skyrider Elf and Woodland Wanderer are too good not to include some extra colored sources here.

But the answer isn't checklands, it's the battle lands. Once you have two basics, you're all set and you can play them as gates on the first turn and they will enable your Hinterland Harbors. Losing Tempo because of mana hasn't been an issue for me. It happens infrequently, sure, but the payoff is worth it.

Drowner of Hope is the card you' re missing, though. He is the stone cold nuts in this type of deck. I'll post my current list as soon as I'm able for comparison.

Yes Battlelands would cost very little tempo on average, and offer a bit of oomph to the skyriders, I agree. I wouldn't even consider wanderer without those in simic (4/4 trample is.... ok but still dies to alot). And yes, Drowner is indeed a perfect card for this type of deck, I run it in almost every blue deck in duels. Cheers Hakeem, good remark.

I've been off the Simic tempo for awhile, but here's an example of what I meant :

3 x Clutch of Currents
1 x Welkin Tern
3 x Elvish Skyrider
3 x Undercity Troll
2 x Disperse

3 x Eldrazi Skyspawner
3 x Frost Lynx
3 x Bounding Krasis

3 x Whirler Rogue
3 x Adverse Conditions
1 x Kiora, Master of the Depths

2 x Guardian of Tazeem
1 x Outland Colossus

2 x Drowner of Hope

2 x Gaea's Revenge

8 x Island
9 x Forest
2 x Hinterland Harbor
2 x Skyline Cascade
2 x Lumbering Falls
2 x Simic Guildgate


If you absolutely HAVE go more timmy, feel free to cut adverse conditions for wanderers, cut a tern, and run battlelands + some gnarlids. I personally like my instant speed shenanigans, they represent LOTS of damage.

Seriously though.. why battlelands instead of checklands. I really don't get why they're superior here. Help me understand. I see more of a chance for the battlelands to come in tapped than the checklands.

Because you only need two basics and suddenly they're all online. The checklands each require specific basics. So if you have two Islands, you can never play a checkland other than Hinterland Harbor that produces green mana. Similarly, when you have two Forests, only the Harbors give you untapped blue mana.

Perhaps some combination of the two is right.. I dunno. I can just see a bunch of scenarios where the battlelands come in tapped where the checklands wouldn't.. like if I only have one basic (I only have 11).

You can count Evolving Wilds as basics. Anyway, here is what I'm running these days:

4 x Clutch of Currents

3 x Undercity Troll
4 x Snapping Gnarlid
3 x Skyrider Elf

4 x Eldrazi Skyspawner
4 x Frost Lynx
3 x Bounding Krasis

3 x Whirler Rogue
2 x Woodland Wanderer
2 x Adverse Conditions

2 x Guardian of Tazeem

2 x Drowner of Hope

5 x Island
7 x Forest
2 x Lumbering Falls
2 x Sunken Hollow
2 x Cinder Glade
2 x Canopy Vista
2 x Prairie Stream
2 x Hinterland Harbor

Wow your list is even more all in Seems an even better example. Mine is more hedged to survive an early whipe.

I should probably play one copy of Revenge with all those scions and as a hedge against control. I keep going back on Clutch of Currents between 3x and 4x, I could easily go back to three and play a copy.

I'd actually run your gnarlid list over mine (with some minor tweaks) in today's steam meta though; lots of twinbolts around; so tern isn't as good and Wanderer gets better. This is what I had in deckbuilder from a month or so ago; when the decks were less tuned.

ALSO: how to get results oriented :

Some dude was reading this thread and decided to run a battlelands version, and ends up playing vs me. His take on it was running Spell shrivel (I guess for the cats) and gnarlids ( I do not dissaprove of this approach, it makes sense to me, the cats feel like really bad krasis anyway so -3 lynx +3 gnarlid seems perfectly legit). I took a hand with Skyrider, disperse, 2 krasis a drowner and 2 land, and got absolutely destroyed when my 25 land deck failed to draw land 5 turns in a row. If you take that result litterally you decide that my list is just worse, even though the maths say i'm heavily favourite to draw that land t3, and having a 2nd t2 play makes it worth the risk. Fact is the dude got lucky and had near optimal draws whilst I had to mull free into that hand, then got shafted by manascrew and eaten by t4 rogue from opponent. SAMPLE SIZE TOO SMALL !

This discussion kinda had me taking another look at my simic tempo, so here's my brand new version since last night. It's specifically geared towards staying cheap (4 cmc max), getting card and (untapped) board advantage and gradually eat away life from the opponent. All non-creature spells are instant speed on purpose so no Clutch of Currents included for that reason. I don't have any big creatures unless I awaken the same land twice with two scatters or I get to ultimate Kiora or Nissa. No need for a mana sync really because either I want to cast an instant, regenerate my troll, flash Krasis or Harbinger, or 'awaken' my Lumbering Falls on the opponent's turn. A flipped Nissa revealing a counterspell also has a paralyzing effect on the opponent when you leave enough mana up.

24 Lands:
8 x Forest
6 x Island
4 x Skyline Cascade
2 x Simic Guildgate
2 x Hinterland Harbor
2 x Lumbering Falls

2-Drops:
3 x Undercity Troll
2 x Elvish Visionary
2 x Harbinger of the Tides
4 x Disperse

3-Drops:
1 x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 x Scatter to the Winds
2 x Jhessian Thief
3 x Frost Lynx
3 x Bounding Krasis
4 x Wildsize
2 x Spell Shrivel

4-Drops:
2 x Whirler Rogue
2 x Adverse Conditions
2 x Bone to Ash
1 x Kiora, Master of the Depths


I'm toying with the idea of splashing in just a little bit of black for Ulamog's Nullifier and then put the Visionary Elfs on a flying manta and make them Skyrider Elfs and the Bone to Ashes with some more Spell Shrivels and perhaps replace the Scatters with Horribly Awry to maximise Nullifier's chances of utilizing his Processor ability.

you should be running skyrider elf in a tempo deck even if all you have is 2 sources

Boy Matt.. you sure were right on this one. The Willbreaker thing was cool/fun when it worked.. but it was fragile (3 toughness) and inconsistent (didn't always have the creatures able to take advantage of the ability). There is nothing fragile or inconsistent about Drowner of Hope. The instant speed tapping and the 5/5 body took an already strong list and moved it up another half a notch or so. It's a great card.. great call. Thanks bro.

It's a sick card in the right deck. Frost Breath is worth three mana so you get the 5/5 for the other three. The value.

Did you test it after our little chat about the deck or got there on your own?

My testing came right after your article. I tried it out and was quite impressed. I was simply too banned to respond.