discuss:
I just went
p1-1 Upheaval, followed by
Mana vault
worm powerstone
gilded lotus
hedron archive
Gush

so fun, im 1-0 inbetween round, and all the fun of game 1 his ashiok milled over my 1 non jace architect of thought win con. so i had to chain Bonfire into rakdos return ,

Nice! I've been going through a string of 2-1 decks, losing more to misplays than anything else. Last night I went turn 1 Island-->Mana Vault-->Tinker-->Inkwell Leviathan. Good times

Didn't get to play any Vintage Cube, so I've been watching videos instead. Just watched an MTGGoldFish video and decided to draft along. Here's what I got:

Creatures (14)
1 x Llanowar Elves
1 x Fyndhorn Elves
1 x Elves of Deep Shadow
1 x Deathrite Shaman
1 x Scavenging Ooze
1 x Lotus Cobra
1 x Dark Confidant
1 x Tarmogoyf
1 x Courser of Kruphix
1 x Avalanche Riders
1 x Bloodbraid Elf
1 x Oracle of Mul Daya
1 x Huntmaster of the Fells
1 x Acidic Slime

Other Spells (11)
1 x Mox Diamond
1 x Mox Ruby
1 x Fastbond
1 x Thoughtseize
1 x Inquisition of Kozilek
1 x Green Sun's Zenith
1 x Ancient Grudge
1 x Abrupt Decay
1 x Maelstrom Pulse
1 x Domri Rade
1 x Crucible of Worlds

Land (15)
1 x Woodland Cemetery
1 x Verdant Catacombs
1 x Wooded Foothills
1 x Temple of Malice
1 x Badlands
1 x Rootbound Crag
1 x Stomping Grounds
1 x Swamp
7 x Forest

Sideboard (12)
1 x Fauna Shaman
1 x Wall of Roots
1 x Dualcaster Mage
1 x Lifebane Zombie
1 x Necropotence
1 x Awakening Zone
1 x Guttersnipe
1 x Ranger of Eos
1 x Master of the Wild Hunt
1 x Polukranos, World Eater
1 x Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
1 x Garruk, Caller of Beasts
1 x Iona, Shield of Emeria


He didn't start with much in the way of powerful archetype cards, so I took the discard spells. (If you can't draft the broken stuff, draft ways to kill the broken stuff.) Grabbed an Elf along the way, took a late Bloodbraid, grabbed some mana denial, and ended up drafting Jund. (He drafted Eureka/Through the Breach Eldrazi.) I really like where this deck ended up. It has a some great control elements; discard can be devastating in this format, stripping storm of what they need, ripping a key reanimator spell, and so on. So many decks are looking to do broken things, but they almost all need a mass of cards to do so. Knocking a few pieces off is usually a winning formula. I also LOVE my top-of-the-library theme: Courser, Oracle, Bloodbraid, BOB, and Domri all work so well with each other. Fastbond I grabbed early pack two without anything that combos with it, but it's one of those cards that you can make into a complete bomb with the right picks. The green deck-toppers are amazing with it, I got a late Crucible for super combos, and fetches pair everything together. (Took Fastbond over Strip Mine, which didn't table, and Foothills over Zuran Orb, because I felt more desperate for fixing at the time and because the Orb combo is better when you can do something epic with all that mana.) Not sure about some of the sideboard cards; Polukranos is a monster, but decks with tons of small creatures aren't that common in this Cube. Master was cut for the same reason. Wall of Roots was a final cut, but I don't think I have enough to do on the opponent's turn (which is one of the best reasons to run Wall), it doesn't attack (my deck needs to put pressure on to make all that disruption worthwhile), and I already have plenty of ramp. Freyalise seemed redundant with my cheaper cards, and I don't have a great way to take advantage of the token army.

Wish I could have played it. I've become a fan of not being the broken deck in Vintage/Legacy cube.

The problem with your deck is that it's all ramp without targets. Deathrite Shaman, Domri Rade, and Tarmogoyf are all pretty bad, whereas Polukranos and Master of the Wild Hunt are good. (One swarms the board and one kills their creatures.) Freyalise kills artifacts and reanimate enchantments, and Fauna Shaman would turn your late-game dorks into tutors for playable creatures.

Really though, if you're going mono-green ramp, you need something like Avenger of Zendikar or Woodfall Primus in your deck. I drafted something like that last night and ended up making it to the finals, losing only barely to a deck with power, demonic tutor, Mind Twist, and Karn. It was a weird finals since my opponent's deck was all removal, and you generally don't run into that in cube.

Anyway I don't think you should aim for a fair deck in vintage cube. The "fair" decks need to either be super disruptive or need to be accelerated with ramp/fast mana so their speed is "broken."

What i good green shell without the payoff, that deck needed a hoof, or avenger, even a nasty rasty bad. and yes due to not having the big pay off, i would of for sure mained the Pollykronopolis, and probably master of wild hunt for the Goyf,

Does the deck ramp that hard, though? 3 Elves, Cobra, Courser, Oracle, 2 Moxes, and Fastbond. It can, but it also doesn't seem great at ramping hard as much as it's great at getting to 5 mana. I could probably use something with more oomph considering that the possibility is there.

Deathrite Shaman, Domri Rade, and Tarmogoyf are all pretty bad, whereas Polukranos and Master of the Wild Hunt are good. (One swarms the board and one kills their creatures.) Freyalise kills artifacts and reanimate enchantments, and Fauna Shaman would turn your late-game dorks into tutors for playable creatures.[/quote]
Deathrite Shaman is completely underrated. If you can put lands in your graveyard (Diamond + 2 Fetches), it becomes another mana-dork. It screws with Reanimator and Storm, two of the more broken decks in the format. It's definitely not good everywhere, but it's exactly what this deck needs. Domri Rade I admit is lackluster in a lot of decks, but in this deck, it's a cheap combo with Bob, Courser and Oracle, drawing out gas to make way for more land plays. The fight portion isn't always the greatest in this deck, but it doesn't have to be: creatures just aren't running around as much. That's why Polukranos and Master got cut; they're answers to a problem that just isn't big in this cube. The creatures that need to be stopped either come out too quick to be fought (Rofellos, Llanowar Emmissary, Metalworker) or are too big to be fought. Polukranos I can see getting added to the deck since just going monstrous can close out games; I just didn't think I needed it in the main. And Master is just soooooooo slow. I'd play it in some Mono-green and Opposition lists, but nowhere else. It's abysmal in Vintage Cube. Tarmogoyf was on the chopping block, but considering I have natural ways to put lands in my graveyard, cheap discard spells, and every spell-type other than tribal in my deck, I think it's actually a good card. The plan is to control what the opponent's doing early on with resource destruction, and gofy closes out matches in those type of decks. Same formula as Jund or Shardless.


This isn't a mono-green ramp deck. It's not trying to unload huge, single-minded top-end. There's no Rofellos or Gaea's Cradle or Channel or anything that produces more than 2 mana, even. The mana accelerants in this deck are there to play 3, 4, and 5 drops a turn or two earlier, because those drop are all interruptive, and early interruption is just better. That's where I think the disconnect is. I agree that this deck might want something to sink mana into, but I completely disagree that it's trying to throw out a fatty as soon as possible.


I agree that the fair decks need to focus on disrupting the opponent while establishing a clock. I've got two 1-mana discard spells, multiple ways to kill early rampers whether creature or artifact, multiple ways to disrupt recursion, and multiple ways to break up lands.



In summation, I think our ideas of this deck are completely different. Shame I couldn't play it to find out.

That deck ramps super hard. You seem like you could get to 6 mana on turn 3 every game. It doesn't ramp as well/consistently as other decks, but that doesn't mean it doesn't, ya know?

DRS is bad. I've watched so many streams where pros say it's bad, I've played against it and it was bad, I've watched people play against it and it did nothing. It's just a bad card in cube. The number of ways to get lands into your deck is very limited and spread across 8 other decks, so it doesn't ramp consistently. The mana you need to use all its modes is harder to get than other decks. You're not playing enough interaction to get creatures in the yard. It doesn't hose reanimator/other decks very much because it's not like this deck is putting them on a clock anyway, so they could easily just play out their threat or kill your DRS. It's also confusing to me that you'd argue it's partly good because it's a mana dork and you're running 3 cards that put lands in the graveyard, which seems pretty "eh," but you don't think this is a ramp deck when you're playing 10 cards that can ramp you.

Goyf is also bad. You're not playing fetches and putting them into the yard, you're not disrupting their hand regularly, you're mainly casting creatures instead of interactive spells. It's just bad here, nowhere near as effective in this format as Modern or Legacy.

2 discard spells and some removal also isn't stellar in cube. It's definitely not enough to stop the more powerful decks.

I'd play the hunt guy because, while he is slow, you can get him out on turn 2 fairly easily. Being able to pump out 2/2 tokens for a couple turns is often game.

Really I don't think you're going to see what I'm getting at unless you play a deck like this in the cube. I've poured almost 100 hours into it between cubing and watching pros stream. I recommend spending the 10 bucks and trying it out though, it's very fun!

In the spirit of good faith, I drafted a rampy deck just now and will run it through a tournament:

1 x Arbor Elf
1 x Fyndhorn Elf
1 x Llanowar Elves
1 x Lotus Cobra
1 x Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 x Leonin Arbiter
1 x Qasali Pridemage
1 x Blade Splicer
1 x Banisher Priest
1 x Silverblade Paladin
1 x Emeria Angel
1 x Indrik Stomphowler
1 x Wurmcoil Engine
1 x Woodfall Primus

1 x Karn Liberated

1 x Mox Pearl
1 x Mox Emerald
1 x Skullclamp
1 x Umezawa's Jitte
1 x Sword of Body and Mind
1 x Crucible of Worlds
1 x Basalt Monolith

1 x Primal Command
1 x Secure the Wastes

7 x Forest
5 x Plains
1 x Karakas
1 x Strip Mine
1 x Wasteland


Just went 2-0 as I was typing this up against what I assume was some reanimator deck running 4 colors. I won game 1 off a turn 1 strip mine and a turn 3 leonin arbiter and my opponent forgetting to pay 2 to search. I won game 2 off a turn 2 emeria followed by a turn 5 Karn. Good times. Will keep you posted on the rest.
1 Sunpetal Grove

Second match was another reanimator deck, except this time it was actually OK, with entombs and elesh norn. I almost punt game 1 attacking into his liliana thinking it was at 3 counters and not five, then hitting him with the mill sword and giving him a chance to unburial rites a grave titan. I manage to win off some double blocks and topdecking umezawa's jitte.

Game 2 I get no gas and he gets an elesh norn on the table. Meanwhile he's just playing dudes and even gets a lotus onto the table, which he never needs to activate. Eventually he's got enough mana to cast it over and over again against my slow as poop karakas.

Game 3 he entombs me, hymns me, plays a recurring nightmare while I ramp into a turn 3 wurmcoil engine and cast primal command to take the elesh norn out of his graveyard and make him shuffle back his recurring nightmare.

In the finals now, playing against a UG upheaval deck... which seems bad for my opponent, since it looks like I'm faster than him. I beat him after he upheavels and I play my lotus cobra with a mox pearl and a couple of dudes. Eventually I land Karn and he can't do anything so he scoops.

Game 2 I play a turn 1 dork, turn 2 Rofellos, turn 3 sword of body and mind and he scoops.

3-0 with only one game dropped. Not bad.

Ya, maybe it ramps more than I think it does. My experience with Fastbond in Cube is that it's super-unreliable unless you have combos (which of course I have here).


I agree. I really do. You need to have a lot go right for it to be good for your deck. I just happen to think I have those things.


I am playing fetches, I've got hand disruption, I'm killing artifact mana. Goyf seems like my best clock. And I need a clock if my plan is to disrupt the opponent for the first 7 turns and win on the way. Again, I agree that Goyf is mostly bad in Vintage cube (heck, it's usually bad in Legacy cube), but I think I have the right things to make it worthy of inclusion here.


It's so, so, so, so slow. I just don't see the benefit; it's bad at closing out games, slow at taking out opposing creatures, and easily dies before doing anything meaningful. Polukranos, I'm down with. This, not as much.


I agree that theory-crafting only goes so far. I've played every Vintage/Holiday Cube season since they introduced it... until now. I've been watching a ton of videos instead of playing this year. (Have you seen how many losses LSV has? It's sort of hilarious.) I realize this isn't broken. And maybe it doesn't have all the pieces it needs to do things right. But I also think it can possibly do enough to interrupt the opponent's attempts at glory.



Anyway, your green ramp deck looks sweet, though I think Jitte is out of place. Most match-ups Jitte seems super inconsequential. Speaking of which...

I decided to get back onto MTGO and do Cube since it's still around. Drafted a very question WG Land destruction deck that was missing a few components. Went 1-2 losing to a lot of Hymn to Tourachs in the process.

Jitte is probably one of the top ten non-power 9 cards in the set. It hoses the fair decks, like the ramp, burn, and hatebears style decks; it kills the value creatures people play in decks, like tidehollow sculler, putrid imp, oona's prowler, flippy jace, etc. It hoses token strategies, and guarantees your creatures will always trade up against decks cheating big creatures into play. (I myself have lost to a jitte against a creature deck while playing a tinker + inkwell leviathan deck.) And it doubles the clock for almost any creature on an uncontested board.

Jitte is very good in my deck because I have cheap creatures to put it on. It is the reason I managed to win game 1 match 2 after some serious misplays, and match 3 game 2 it allowed me to shut down an Awakening Zone that my opponent was banking on to get back into the game. It is so, so good, and relevant in almost any match up. It's important to note my silverblade paladin gives it double the counters, so there's some sweet incidental synergy there.

I don't know what the WG land destruction deck is...

EDIT: OK, I'll concede Jitte is not relevant in an artifact-style ramp super friends deck. But I'd say it's relevant in 80% of the matchups, maybe more. Most decks still win through playing creatures.

The only small creatures decks I've really seen do well in this format are mono-red (which has so much burn that sticking a Jitte is often impossible), critter ramp, and hate-bears. But most of the wins in Vintage come from Tinker and Oath and Reanimator and Storm and artifact ramp into giant dudes and Planeswalker control. Jitte seems like a sideboard option in this Cube to me.

1-0 in my current draft. I was set up for Storm and didn't get any of the Storm win-cons! So, I improvised:

Ramp (8)
1 x Chrome Mox
1 x Lion's Eye Diamond
1 x High Tide
1 x Mana Vault
1 x Cabal Ritual
1 x Azorius Signet
1 x Izzet Signet
1 x Worn Powerstone

Deck Manipulation (9)
1 x Vampiric Tutor
1 x Faithless Looting
1 x Thirst for Knowledge
1 x Timetwister
1 x Wheel of Fortune
1 x Time Spiral
1 x Mind's Desire
1 x Dig Through Time
1 x Treasure Cruise

Interrupts (4)
1 x Inquisition of Kozilek
1 x Ancient Grudge
1 x Terminate
1 x Dack Faden

Helpers (2)
1 x Lightning Greaves
1 x Oath of Druids

Win-Cons (2)
1 x Villainous Wealth
1 x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

Land (15)
7 x Island
1 x Forest
1 x Swamp
1 x Mountain
1 x Rootbound Crag
1 x Temple of Malice
1 x Watery Grave
1 x Verdant Catacombs
1 x Tolarian Academy

Sideboard (7)
1 x Goblin Welder
1 x Smash to Smithereens
1 x Torch Fiend
1 x Winter Orb
1 x Electorlyze
1 x Daretti, Scrap Savant
1 x Angel of Serenity


P3P1, I had Welder, Oath and Daretti already, but no big artifacts. I opened Mana Vault and Inkwell Leviathan. Went with Vault because I had so much good storm stuff. Hadn't passed any other big artifact dudes or storm win-cons, so I thought I had a whole pack to find stuff. Didn't quite work out that way. I grabbed Wealth in a throw away pack because it's a fine secondary win-con for these huge-mana decks, and I snagged Ulamog early in pack 3 just in case nothing else came my way (which it didn't).

I decided to play Lightning Greaves even though I only have the one creature because I felt like I might need to win all at once. I'm drawing through my whole deck, so it shouldn't be difficult to assemble them when I'm storming out. It's also an artifact for my mediocre Academy. It's not the best inclusion, but I think it has merit since I don't have a Tendrils or Freeze to lock up wins with. Terminate seemed like a fine inclusion since I can tutor for it, especially when most of my sideboard is artifact hate. Fatihless Looting isn't great, but with two delve spells, it works out. Daretti and Welder never found enough purpose, so I just cut them.

M1G1, really long, drawn-out affair where I cast about five draw 7s and two Desires each for 5 all trying to find Ulamog. Never found him, opponent casts Bribery. Next turn I find Wealth, cast it for 10, play Jace, Nicol Bolas, and all is well.

M1G2, I side out Terminate and Oath because my opponent was close to creatureless. Side in artifact hate for his two Moxes and Tezzeret shenanigans. Blow up all the opponent's artifacts while ramping myself. Combo Ulamog with Greaves into the GGs.

Cube is pretty fun I must admit!

That black lotus card is pretty good. T3 Dragonlord Dromoka, or T1 Ajani Vengeant (in my Naya burn deck) isn't even *that* good (but usually good enough).

I also went Channel + Lotus + Genesis Wave for 11 playing a bunch of lands, throwing down Elesh Norn, DLD, Lightning Greaves, and Resto for good measure.

But this was not early in the game. I had to throw down a tangle wire and stall until I drew channel.

Oh, P1 P1 question: Mox Sapphire or Tinker?

Sapphire. Tinker is broken with artifacts, but Sapphire is broken with everything.

@rstnme: Played a RDW splashing blue for Time Walk, Treasure Cruise, and Gitaxian Probe. Got owned by Jitte.

Okay, last deck of the night. This one is sweet.

Accelerators (7)
1 x Chrome Mox
1 x Dark Ritual
1 x Azorius Signet
1 x Rakdos Signet
1 x Selesnya Signet
1 x Pentad Prism
1 x Seething Song

Deck Manipulation (10)
1 x Ancestral Vision
1 x Gitaxian Probe
1 x Ponder
1 x Scroll Rack
1 x Demonic Tutor
1 x Timetwister
1 x Wheel of Fortune
1 x Dack Faden
1 x Dark Petition
1 x Time Spiral

Win Conditions (3)
1 x Young Pyromancer
1 x Monastery Mentor
1 x Empty the Warrens

Extra Turns Are Fun (3)
1 x Time Walk
1 x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 x Dualcaster Mage

Protection (1)
1 x Force of Will

Lands (16)
1 x Arid Mesa
1 x BadLands
1 x Dragonskull Summit
1 x Hallowed Fountain
1 x Shelldock Isle
1 x Tolarian Academy
1 x Sulfur Falls
1 x Temple of Malice
1 x Swamp
2 x Mountain
5 x Island

Sideboard (5)
1 x Mishra's Workshop
1 x Monastery Swiftspear
1 x Mental Misstep
1 x Necropotence
1 x Dig Through Time


Empty the Warrens is so much sweeter when you have access to extra turns.

Scroll Rack? I know Jitte is busted in unpowered cube but I heard it was just OK in vintage. Probably good against mono-red though.

Forced another GW deck bc I kinda like them and I didn't see anything interesting passed my way. (No power except Timetwister, and no thanks.)

1 x Avacyn's Pilgrim
1 x Birds of Paradise
1 x Fyndhorn Elves
1 x Wall of Roots
1 x Scavenging Ooze
1 x Banisher Priest
1 x Reclamation Sage
1 x Emeria Angel
1 x Hero of Bladehold
1 x Solemn Simulacrum
1 x Primeval Titan
1 x Avenger of Zendikar
1 x Terrastadon
1 x Woodfall Primus

1 x Mana Crypt
1 x Skullclamp
1 x Selesnya Signet
1 x Gilded Lotus

1 x Oblivion Ring
1 x Mirari's Wake

1 x Garruke Wildspeaker
1 x Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury

1 x Green Sun's Zenith
1 x Natural Order

1 x Windswept Heath
1 x Temple Garden
1 x Sunpetal Grove
7 x Forest
6 x Plains


The Games

0-2 vs. Burn

Lost match 1 to turn 1 Mountain--> Black Lotus --> Koth game 1. Game 2 I lost to turn 2 Shrine of Burning Rage and turn 3 Sulfuric Vortex. I guess I should've boarded in more enchantment/artifact hate, but that seemed counter-intuitive at the time when the only artifacts I saw were lotus and shrine game 1. Anyway, game 2 I terrastadon'd his shrine and vortex, he sacked the shrine in response bringing me to 2. I had a dead-on-board position next turn... and he topdecked magma jet. Boo.

Bye (Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo)

2-0 vs. BG reanimate

He tutors for a mana vault, which I kill with a rec sage immediately. He sandbags his hand while I develop my board and is eventually able to discard old-school Ulamog and cast Makeshift Mannequin on it in response to the shuffle trigger. I O-ring it, attack him down to 3, and he packs it in. Game 2 he tutors again for fast mana, gets a Wurmcoil Engine onto the battlefield, which I O-ring. I'm able to draw mana crypt and start laying down threats, eventually getting Avenger and Prime Time onto the battlefield at the same time. He has Nissa and manages to plus her to 7, but before he can ultimate her I cast unexpectedly absent and put it on top of his library. He's facing lethal if he casts her again, and for some reason he attacks into my board. As I am determining blocks he scoops--I was playing around tendrils of agony, thinking he may have been able to kill me bc he cast lotus bloom that turn, and he might have a mox and tendrils in hand, which would be enough to bring me down to 3 and possibly die to a mana crypt trigger. When I block so that I don't take damage--he scoops.

Kind of a lame way to end it. I can't even start another round because I won't get the prize points until the whole tournament ends, and it'll be too late for me by then.

1. I have three different draw-7 spells. With Scroll Rack out, that's up to draw-14. If you cast a draw-7 with Rack out, you're almost guaranteed to go off.
2. It helps Tolarian Academy.