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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 12:31 pm 
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Modulo wrote:
This deck looks really nice :)

Do you think running two Knight of the White Orchid is just too harsh on the mana? Because the upside to running him is definitely there; seeing how he can get Canopy Vista or Praerie Stream if you're a) on the draw or b) facing Ramp. My idea would be running them over Retreat and one Felidar Cub (or Skyrider Elf; seeing how you might want to nudge the manabase towards White a little).


You might be able to get away with it, but I wouldn't do it. Obviously, no big harm removing the retreat (so 1 is no big deal), but you need additional sources of white mana to support two of them without them often being dead in hand, and that will probably come at a cost to consistency. That t2 2 power thing is a big deal, and this might get in the way of it. Plus, I'd totally run Consul's Lieutenant if I could, but I don't think that I can. I'm also not sure what ramping helps in this deck, there aren't any big plays to be made. Basically, you want 5 mana, and then you're good to go. I guess 6 mana is also useful, but you don't really need it, IMO.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts, let me know if you try it and it works for you. I'd love to make a version that can support double white 2 drops, so if you crack it I'd want to be the first to know. :-)

Edit: I'm not sure this is the right retreat for this deck, btw. I hadn't really thought about that until just now, lol. Emeria might actually be a better fit here, as the pump effect could be useful to push through lethal faster. I'm not sure. I'd test both at some point.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:12 pm 
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DJ0045 wrote:
Okay, so GoboRab got me thinking about this. I haven't had time to test this deck fully, but I'm sure it will be fine.

Bant - Aggro Control

1 x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
3 x Dauntless River Marshal
4 x Felidar Cub
1 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

4 x Clutch of Currents
1 x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 x Disperse
1 x Retreat to Coralhelm
3 x Whirler Rogue

1 x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 x Woodland Wanderer

3 x Skyrider Elf
2 x Veteran Warleader
3 x Bounding Krasis
3 x Roil Spout

3 x Plains
5 x Island
3 x Forest
2 x Lumbering Falls
2 x Canopy Vista
2 x Prairie Stream
1 x Hinterland Harbor
2 x Glacial Fortress
4 x Evolving Wilds


So, this is in response to some attempts at the aggro control format. I'm pretty certain that with our new lands Bant is the way to go. I'll post my Jeskai shortly (here), but this is the deck I think will perform the best. You really get a lot of power in the lower midrange with this build, and you have answers to everything your opponent is likely to play all the way until the top of their curve - by which point, if this deck is working, you'll already have won the game.

Playing note: you must have 2 power on the board by turn two. Mulligan any hand that can't do that - look at the mana requirements as well.

There aren't many slots that are variable in this deck (except retreat, which is only in the list, because I haven't tested it yet. If it's good, it will be one copy, if it's bad - some random mythic that I like will take its place). I could see trying to run some more white 1 drops, but honestly, I'd probably just keep it as is - no matter what the Meta.


First impression without testing: Veteran Warleader seems out of place. I expect him to disappoint without token generation or allies to use his ability.
Jace also doesn't make sense to me. You're trying to win asap, so why would you waste 2 mana on a wall?
Not sure about the retreat. it's a card I never used before, but if there's a place for it, I guess this could be it. Just not sure if you play enough lands beyond 3 to justify it.

I think the deck needs more 2-drops. I agree that you probably can't support the double white weenies. I'd take a look at the 2 mana 3/1 guys. Not only do they hurt on an empty board, they also kill all the 0/3 walls without buffs, which is quite important.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:23 pm 
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Gegliosch wrote:
DJ0045 wrote:
Okay, so GoboRab got me thinking about this. I haven't had time to test this deck fully, but I'm sure it will be fine.

Bant - Aggro Control

1 x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
3 x Dauntless River Marshal
4 x Felidar Cub
1 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

4 x Clutch of Currents
1 x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 x Disperse
1 x Retreat to Coralhelm
3 x Whirler Rogue

1 x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 x Woodland Wanderer

3 x Skyrider Elf
2 x Veteran Warleader
3 x Bounding Krasis
3 x Roil Spout

3 x Plains
5 x Island
3 x Forest
2 x Lumbering Falls
2 x Canopy Vista
2 x Prairie Stream
1 x Hinterland Harbor
2 x Glacial Fortress
4 x Evolving Wilds


So, this is in response to some attempts at the aggro control format. I'm pretty certain that with our new lands Bant is the way to go. I'll post my Jeskai shortly (here), but this is the deck I think will perform the best. You really get a lot of power in the lower midrange with this build, and you have answers to everything your opponent is likely to play all the way until the top of their curve - by which point, if this deck is working, you'll already have won the game.

Playing note: you must have 2 power on the board by turn two. Mulligan any hand that can't do that - look at the mana requirements as well.

There aren't many slots that are variable in this deck (except retreat, which is only in the list, because I haven't tested it yet. If it's good, it will be one copy, if it's bad - some random mythic that I like will take its place). I could see trying to run some more white 1 drops, but honestly, I'd probably just keep it as is - no matter what the Meta.


First impression without testing: Veteran Warleader seems out of place. I expect him to disappoint without token generation or allies to use his ability.
Jace also doesn't make sense to me. You're trying to win asap, so why would you waste 2 mana on a wall?
Not sure about the retreat. it's a card I never used before, but if there's a place for it, I guess this could be it. Just not sure if you play enough lands beyond 3 to justify it.

I think the deck needs more 2-drops. I agree that you probably can't support the double white weenies. I'd take a look at the 2 mana 3/1 guys. Not only do they hurt on an empty board, they also kill all the 0/3 walls without buffs, which is quite important.


When you get Jace to plains walker it's GG. His [-] ability seals the deal in very short order. He's definitely not a wall. He's my ability to reuse all of my tempo spells a second time, and that's fantastic with this deck, trust me (but he is not a t2 play in this deck, in case that wasn't clear).

Warleader is ~okay. He's done well for me. I'd like a better card in that slot, but a typically 3/3 by the time he attacks for three is pretty darn good in this deck (easy mana doesn't hurt either btw). When he grows bigger it's a nice bonus - when you have whirler rogue in play he is huge for the cost, and unblockable. What do you recommend instead though? (I don't know if I like the 3/1s much - I don't really want creatures that are easy to chump block and kill).

Note: t2 creature
t3 Warleader
t4 Whirler Rogue = unlbockable 5/5 on t4. And it certainly happens that way, so don't write it off as impossible.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:49 pm 
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I don't write it off as impossible, the Warleader can be quite powerful against low removal counts. He'd just be a sad play if they kill your 2-drop. That's just something to look out for while playtesting, if he works more often than not then fine.

I know that Jace is a good card, I just don't think it's a particularly good choice for an aggro/tempo deck. He takes a while to flip and then it takes a few turns to get a second spell out of him. Your games shouldn't take that long, especially if you don't wanna play him early anyway. Get your card advantage elsewhere.

What do you think about Elemental Bond? I really think 3-power creatures are the way to go against the popular Offshoot defense and the card got a lot better with the expansion. You have Dauntless River Marshal, Kor Castigator, Bounding Krasis, Woodland Wanderer, Skyrider Elf and Veteran Warleader to trigger it. You could cut a few bounce effects as the card draw will compensate for the lower count.

I admit I haven't tried the Castigator yet, but I don't see a lot of 1/1 creatures lately, besides scions and they can't block it. He's fantastic against walls, other 2-3 drops and an empty board. The ramp decks usually don't play anything that hurts him. He'd be worse against thopters and Visionaries, but I think the meta justifies the inclusion. Especially when you play with Elemental Bond to get the card back.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:59 pm 
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Gegliosch wrote:
I don't write it off as impossible, the Warleader can be quite powerful against low removal counts. He'd just be a sad play if they kill your 2-drop. That's just something to look out for while playtesting, if he works more often than not then fine.

I know that Jace is a good card, I just don't think it's a particularly good choice for an aggro/tempo deck. He takes a while to flip and then it takes a few turns to get a second spell out of him. Your games shouldn't take that long, especially if you don't wanna play him early anyway. Get your card advantage elsewhere.

What do you think about Elemental Bond? I really think 3-power creatures are the way to go against the popular Offshoot defense and the card got a lot better with the expansion. You have Dauntless River Marshal, Kor Castigator, Bounding Krasis, Woodland Wanderer, Skyrider Elf and Veteran Warleader to trigger it. You could cut a few bounce effects as the card draw will compensate for the lower count.


Man, but I love Jace in this deck. :cry:

Elemental bond sounds like a fantastic idea. I'll try it and get back to you, but I think possibly, because the only auto-include card in this deck that doesn't trigger it is whirler rogue. I'm just not sure I'd ever want to take t3 off to play it, and later I won't get as much benefit out of the card.

Regarding offshoot, you just bounce it - ideally to the top of their deck, and laugh at them. I'm not that worried at all about that start. (And then bounce it again when Jace becomes a planeswalker :P )


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 2:23 pm 
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Hmm, not sure if I would bounce a wall early on. If you do that right away, it basically negates your second turn and they can just replay it. I find it much more convenient to have creatures it can't block.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 2:37 pm 
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Gegliosch wrote:
Hmm, not sure if I would bounce a wall early on. If you do that right away, it basically negates your second turn and they can just replay it. I find it much more convenient to have creatures it can't block.


Nah come on man, you're obviously right, extra power t2 is better if possible. But I absolutely would bounce it back to hand and play a 2nd creature given the chance on t3, which is what I meant - t2 is always a creature other than Jace, or I mulligan. Similarly, I'd let them waste my t3 while I develop board, and then bounce it later to attack in for added damage, depending on how I read their deck.

I like my veteran warleaders better than the kors, but that doesn't mean they don't fit in somewhere (the fact they are allies, furthers this thought, e.g.: I want them more if the warleaders stay), possibly for a cub or two, maybe for Kytheon (if I add elemental bond for retreat), maybe for retreat (if I don't add bond).


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 3:26 pm 
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I tried a few games vs AI with the following list. Felt pretty good. Elemental Bond was amazing with all the cheap triggers. Your 1-drops don't trigger it, but you play them first anyway and when you topdeck them later you might even have a Gideon emblem to buff them to 3 power.

1-drop
1x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
3x Sunblade Elf
4x Clutch of Currents

2-drop
3x Dauntless River Marshal
4x Kor Castigator
2x Disperse
1x Evolutionary Leap

3-drop
3x Bounding Krasis
2x Veteran Warleader
3x Skyrider Elf
2x Lantern Scout
3x Elemental Bond

4-drop
2x Woodland Wanderer
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

5-drop
1x Hero of Goma Fada

6-drop
1x Woodland Bellower

Lands
2x Canopy Vista
2x Prairie Stream
2x Sunpetal Grove
2x Glacial Fortress
2x Hinterland Harbor
4x Evolving Wilds
3x Island
3x Forest
4x Plains

I know we won't agree on the Whirler cut. Won't make much of a difference if you leave them in.

Tried it in multiplayer for a few games. Thanks for the inspiration, I never had so much fun with a creature deck before. You just never run out of steam. Once the Bond was out, I kept playing 2-3 creatures a turn all game long :D

Edits:
1. Changed the mana base. Needs Evolving Wilds to fetch the basics for your creature buffs. Thinning out the deck can't hurt either, the curve is low and you draw a lot of cards.

2. Dropped Elite Vanguards for singletons of Evolutionary Leap, Woodland Bellower and Hero of Goma Fada.


Last edited by Gegliosch on Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:01 am, edited 5 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:34 pm 
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That's cool!

I'm actually fine with losing rogue. Losing roil spout is the problem to me, lol. Especially after adding elemental bond into the deck.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:53 pm 
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DJ0045 wrote:
That's cool!

I'm actually fine with losing rogue. Losing roil spout is the problem to me, lol. Especially after adding elemental bond into the deck.


Awaken doesn't trigger Elemental Bond. I think 8 bounce spells are enough, along with the tappers. I had no problem getting in. I dropped Roil Spout instead of the bouncers because they're very mana efficient and their usual downside of card disadvantage gets compensated by ridiculous amounts of draw. I had 3 games with 2 Bonds out and almost milled myself :D


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 6:03 pm 
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Gegliosch wrote:
DJ0045 wrote:
That's cool!

I'm actually fine with losing rogue. Losing roil spout is the problem to me, lol. Especially after adding elemental bond into the deck.


Awaken doesn't trigger Elemental Bond. I think 8 bounce spells are enough, along with the tappers. I had no problem getting in. I dropped Roil Spout instead of the bouncers because they're very mana efficient and their usual downside of card disadvantage gets compensated by ridiculous amounts of draw. I had 3 games with 2 Bonds out and almost milled myself :D


Oh yeah... Lol. Just played my first game with bond in the deck, and I haven't had the two things happen together yet. Anyway, roil spout is a very good card. It and clutch are the reason I made this deck. Unlike the other bounce spells, there is no card disadvantage with roil spout (hence the added cost). You deny them a draw for your card.

Under the right circumstances spout = time walk. Even nicer when it gives you a creature.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:27 pm 
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Nice deck guys !
Currently testing -1 Elite Vanguard (7 1-drop kinda felt too much) -1 Disperse +2 Retreat to Emeria. Makes good use of the wilds and multiple land draw and synergises with Warleader.

Might as well go for Roil spout instead of Retreat, love this card and its versatility (not to mention when you kinda disable your opponent's turn).


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:53 pm 
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Can't hurt to pressure your opponent early on. I usually take a break on turn 3 to get Elemental Bond out and I like to have 1-2 creatures to hold the fort. I wouldn't like to risk a two turn break with Bond and Emeria. At this point every (3-power) creature is better value anyway. A few more 1/1 are certainly not bad, but in a deck that already pumps out 2-3 creatures a turn, it's not impressive.

Roil Spout is probably a better fit, if you really think you need more bounce effects. Mana is a huge factor for this deck, though. I like being able to play my creatures and then bounce something with the remaining 1-2 mana. 3 mana often means you get out 1 less creature.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:04 pm 
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Now that I think about it, Lantern Scout should be in here. The creatures have a lot of power, such an amount of lifegain should win you every race, even against mono red. And he has 3 power himself to trigger Bond.

Adverse Conditions could also be good, but I don't know what to cut for it. I can make room for 2 Scouts, but more would be tough. Not sure if I prefer this over Disperse.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:14 pm 
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Play Drowner of Hope over Adverse Conditions if you go that way. The 5/5 body is worth the extra two mana. This deck looks good.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:00 pm 
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I think I'm just gonna go down to 2 Disperse and add the Scouts. I could cut 2 Vanguards for the tappers, but I think I prefer the early pressure and defense.

Drowner is worth considering, he also taps two, but it's not instant speed, only taps for 1 turn and is basically twice as expensive. In this deck I'd probably go with Adverse Conditions.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:18 pm 
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You can activate his ability on your opponent's turn, so yeah he does tap at instant speed. He just doesn't do the Frost Breath thing. He's really good and aptly-named. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:52 pm 
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Hakeem928 wrote:
You can activate his ability on your opponent's turn, so yeah he does tap at instant speed. He just doesn't do the Frost Breath thing. He's really good and aptly-named. :)


Well, yes, he does it at instant, if you can wait that turn to set him up and keep him alive. I see the reasons for playing him, he triggers the Bond, is a threat and can tap. Adverse Conditions just fits my playstyle. It's more of a surprise and much cheaper, so it lets me do multiple things on one turn, which is really key with so much card draw.

I'm gonna play the deck without for a while and keep track of situations where they would've helped me out in place of the Vanguards.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:02 pm 
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Can't imagine running either of those cards over roil spout though.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:07 pm 
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Geg, y u no Spout?

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