I like it. A lot. Two questions: do you really need the Tutelages? What about bone splinters? Just curious.

I get that the deck can mill but tutelage does seem out of place and a bit of a pain to splash for (it's the only blue card period which begs the question if it's actually worth that effort). Considering the number of ways you suggested the deck can win, it seems like it would be more beneficial to stick inside the primary colors.

Now regarding cards, did you try or consider Vampiric Rites or Altar's Reap? Seems like either could be a good fit. Same with Mortuary Mire. If you're sac'ing as much as it seems, trading some swamps for additional recursion might be worth while. Shadows of the Past and Graveblade Marauder would like all the sac's too. Like Auunj said, splinters seems like it could be considered. I also have a tough time not including Nissa, Vastwood Seer in any deck that plays green, and wondered if she deserves a spot.


elk

I've tried them all, except mire - but I'd be worried about going over 6 comes into play tapped lands. The inclusion of tutelage takes exactly one potentially blanked land slot, and can kill in two/three turns. The deck is stupid fast. I've ko'ed the opponent three times on turn six, and one of those was via mill. It's a secondary wincon that is extremely hard to avoid, because turns 6-10 you can easily 'draw' 5-6 cards per turn (e.g. Mill 10-12 cards at least), and you can set it off at any time by sacrificing all of your board presence. Moreover, all the extra draw happens as a consequence of trying to win via the primary win-con. So either way, at all times you are playing both mill and beatdown at the same time.

Basically tutelage turns this into a very fast combo deck.

Plus, when you draw that much, you don't care if a couple cards are duds. You will draw into the mana you need, and you will eventually draw into the cards - opponent depending - that will seal the deal.

Don't think you really need recursion in this deck, although I could totally understand the thought process. Shadows is too slow, Graveblade marauder doesn't do anything this deck doesn't already do better. Nissa is awesome, but too slow, IMO for this deck. But I certainly wouldn't mind fitting her in. I just can't think of anything I'd remove (and I want this deck to be as consistent as possible).

Edit: just an added thought... This deck can certainly support some alternate wincon concepts thanks to all the draw. So I really like the tutelage concept, because once it goes off its basically uninterruptible - it's too quick, and it happens at instant speed, so even if they have Felidar Cubs, so long as you play around them, it's going to be GG. But all of that said, I think the engine is robust enough that some minor changes can still easily be supported in the build - e.g. Putting in a Nissa, or switching out something for ulamog, etc...

Hi, first time poster.

Looking at your list, I'd consider swapping a Guildgate for a Rogue's Passage. That way you loose colored mana for a land that comes into play untapped. Seems a fair trade. I also second the Mortuary Mire idea; possibly for the second gate. If you made both swaps, you should also consider switching a forest for a swamp not to unbalance your mana base.

No deep thoughts yet about said deck. Just a pic showing why you run tutelage. AFAIK it's to make fun of other sac decks. Bonus points if they went all in running act of treason and Cullblade, lol.

Lol, looks familiar. Swap the fleshbags for splinters, I think

Actually, when testing, no matter what I come up vs, I have some 'nightmare scenarios' in the back of my head ; if i'm playing a blue deck, i'll obsess about moss t4 on their play for instance (SURPRISE). Another golden oldie is: YO Glory chaser T1, Full Moon T2. There's many others, but you know, that ****'s common.
If I find that a deck has a weakness to my paranoid common scenarios, I'll see if I can start tweaking it to handle those scenarios better.

Splinters for instance is WAY better than fleshbag vs nightmare red in this deck.
However, there's a couple of variables that speak for fleshbag in other scenarios; i'm gonna disregard splinters needing a sac, since this deck has so many dorks to enable it that it should almost be a non issue.

So, besides that, you got the fact that fleshbag very often means you get to add 2 power to your board in this deck at an acceptable cost, and oh, they lost a guy that probably had more than 1 power in the process. Don't disregard that. You got the fact, that, even though you currently have no other direct removal; the deck tends to put out alot of pressure, inviting chumps; leaving their big guy open to....bag. You got the occasional Smotherpea 2 for 1 synergy off bag. You got Lilly enabling.

What I'm trying to say is that since people LOVE their trampling goblins, you will probably win more games (on steam) running splinters. What I'm also trying to say is that maybe Fleshbags aren't the cuts you are looking for /waves hand.

Trick's gonna be what to cut instead; and how good you will be at defending Tutelage's place to many players (I believe it fits fine).

Either way, I've now seen it mill 30+ in one turn multiple times. I think this is the real mill deck we currently have in duels. Not sure how to make it perfect, but this has to be it.

I guess bag vs. splinters is meta dependent.

As I said I don't think its a question of either/or. I bet you need both, especially if your meta has alot of rampsweep and hardcore aggro.

The deck mills like a bad **** when it can set up, and for that it needs time. You can chump all day, but you die to evasion and you die to disruption into inevitability. Splinters and bag both help enormously in each specific scenario, but are so-so in the other. It's not like you can just play coy like dimir husk and kill out of nowhere. Your husk will just get chumped. You either bury them in CA and pressure the crap out of them; or you go for your alternate wincon.
I'll bet it's about trimming some number of the cards you put in as a great builder for maximum consistency (eyeless watcher 4 off for instance, might trim 1), to make this truly competitive.

Anyway ; cheers, i'm off for today

Hmmmmm. So maybe shave a card or two off the top end. Add a rogue or two. Keep two bags, and end up with 4 splinters. I'll take a look tomorrow.

first game with the deck

I likes

I ended up going -2 brood butcher +2 Drowner of Hope. -3 fleshbag +3 splinters still makes sense to me, but I just can't decide (currently running the 3 splinters). That self sac is a big deal sometimes. And I don't always have a good sacrifice target for splinters - although I almost always do.

The Drowner is pretty great, as it handles the majority of things whirler would have done, while also making tokens and being a legitimate threat on its own, and not requiring UU, which our mana options simply can not support. I think it may be sufficient to shore up some of the control issues the deck may have had.

New mana base: -1 swamp + 1 forest, -1 golgari guildgate +1 rogue's passage

Original here: viewtopic.php?p=396632#p396632

In other news... Was facing fatal on opponent's next turn, managed to mill 36 cards in one turn for the kill, had one tutelage in play. Pulled that win out of my butt.

Also tested: -4 Elvish Visionary for +4 Corpse Hauler or +4 Eldrazi Skyspawner, both options proved interesting for different reasons. Hauler really helps with the late game, and you stop caring that much about removal. Skyspawner is great, and helps against fliers a lot, but it makes the deck even more reliant on Smothering Abomination.

DJ, I'm trying your build with -4 Visionaries and +2 Bone Splinters and +2 Corpse Hauler. Fleshbag is just so good with this deck as it triggers Smothering Abomination and Lily, and I do agree with the Corpse Hauler addition to the deck; those are even more triggers and you can return your stuff from the graveyard after you sac it.

Nice! Let me know how it goes. I'm still uncertain on the best build, and that's an interesting idea. Definitely recommend you try subbing brood butcher out for Drowner of Hope though. He just fits better, and can make your opponent want to cry as you tap out all of his creatures and draw a card each time, possibly milling him too. Oh... You thought you were going to get another turn? Nope.

So that's 3 bags, 2 splinters, 2 haulers, no visionaries. I'm going to try 2 bags, 3 splinters, 2 haulers, no visionaries later.

Why does this not run Nissa? When is she ever bad?

It's an interesting one, IMO, because I wouldn't run her in this deck despite the fact that she's a great card. We don't need double green, we don't need extra draw (and she doesn't count as draw), if I'm forced to sac her, I'll get nothing in return. She just brings no synergy to the party, and this isn't a silver bullet deck.

Also, don't laugh, but I'd be concerned about milling myself to death, or having her unable to do anything. Heh

Honestly haven't tried her though, can you recommend a cut? Because, I can't really think of one. Possibly a Drowner of Hope, or something similar. No idea.

Edit: Btw, did I say Shadows of the Past doesn't belong in this deck at some point? I'm a fool. Alt build coming later today/tomorrow.

Edit2: also deathless behemoth might be a thing in here too.

I took out an Eyeless Watcher for Nissa, running 2 Flesh, 3 Splinters, 0 Visionary, 2 Hauler. I have yet to ever miss the 4th Watcher and Nissa got me unstuck from 4 land once and her Elemental has saved me as well. Then there's all the fake-drawn cards. I haven't yet had issues with self-milling but I'm only six games in.

ETA: Having Ult'd Lils twice in that time, I'm considering going 2 Splinters/3 Fleshbag, since Ult'd Lil + Fleshbag is basically GG vs. everything but mill.

I'll try it. Thx for the tip. That switch definitely makes reasonable sense, and you probably don't lose much. I've got another version that seems really powerful now. It's a hair slower, but feels harder to stop. I'll throw Nissa in and test it in there.

Edit: yeah flesh + lily is game over. Haulers make mill play a bit into your hands now, but I'm not sure who wins that match. It STILL hasn't come up somehow.

I've been thinking about this deck and how to beat it. Reprisal and Tragic Arrogance is all I can come up with, and you still have to counter the Tutelages and Abominations.

Tragic arrogance is a disaster against this deck. Please force me to 'sacrifice' everything. Brutal. The best it can do is if I have no outlets at all. Otherwise, it does nothing but fill my hand with likely answers, and probably leave me with abomination or husk. It's a tough one to beat. You will get rid of some enchants though, which will help. But the sac and draw happens first, so the player should be able to do quite a lot of mill, and regain way more card advantage than the opponent gained. If the mana allowed it, this deck might main deck tragic arrogance as a tie breaker.

Reprisal on the other hand sucks. And it's the reason I'm looking at some added recursion. So definitely that, plus exile effects are good and tough to handle - you basically have to make sure they are blanked somehow, ideally by sacrificing the target yourself.