What I don't get is why anyone would claim not town right at the beginning when the town win con clearly indicates what it does. I'd speculate his role gives him a benefit to doing so (or forced him to do so).

Also, the rules say nothing about a majority lynch ending the day Rubik. It only addresses deadline. Perhaps our mod would be so kind as to confirm what you're claiming here in thread?

There's no doubt in my mind that zinger has a plan. I'm sure he's planning on saying that his role helps town more than scum....but, the wording of "no threat remains" coupled with the "two are dead" worries me. If there's only 2 scum now, it seems likely that either their number can grow, there's another faction, or multiple self aligned, or, of course, that the mod is just lying.

If Rubik is right, or might be right, it's critical that we don't let the day end too quickly.

Oh, and if your vote is worth less each day, does it end up counting for 0?

You're reaching a bit Neo. The whole "two dead" bit was part of the flavor. That gives no indication to the mechanics of the game least of all any roles.

All that matters currently is that we have an important discussion point around Zinger. He's claimed something that isn't town, and town win con clearly states that all threats to town be eliminated. The key here being that if you're not town, then you can be considered a threat.

Zinger will definitely need to talk more since a lynch today on him is a lynch not on town, and that is good for town.

I feel like it's more beneficial to town not to clarify that point one way or the other, but I will if enough people deem it necessary.

When a player reaches majority, that player is lynched and the day ends.

Hai.

First I'd like to posit a question to Zinger, how does your NLP interact with being Self Aligned?

Secondly, I'd like to claim. Before I do that I'm going to pre-field the question of why I would. The answer is simply my role's power is in being open information. You'll see why when you read my claim.

My life in this game brings with it the ability for anybody that isn't a current player in this game to participate in the game. So to all you people out there in spectator land, feel free to post your thoughts in this thread while I'm still alive.

Well then, that will make this interesting should anyone outside chip in their two cents.

Yeah Lilan, get in here and scum hunt for us.

The above dice roll will dictate my vote, barring any extenuating circumstances or new developments which otherwise convince me.

This is not related to my role or ability, it is simply my chosen method of deciding my first vote.

First, this;

I don't like lying. I prefer to play Mafia whilst lying as little as possible both because I don't enjoy lying and also because I find it adds an extra level of complexity to the game that I enjoy having to work around. This is my motivation for having a No Lie Policy (motivation is important for those trying to figure out why I would bother with this and how I might choose to word things within the confines of my NLP).

In the strictest sense, it means I will not knowingly lie about anything in the game, except where my alignment is concern.

That second clause is in there because naturally in order to play as Mafia I need to be able to claim that I am Town, so I've allowed that in the terms of my NLP. Technically, this means I could also claim self-aligned (as I have in this game) even if I were in fact not self-aligned, though positive reasons for lying and claiming self-aligned are few and far between. More likely, in every situation where I would want to lie about my alignment (ie. If I were Mafia), I would sooner claim Town than Self, so you can put some amount of faith in that claim. Still, technically, my alignment claim is not guaranteed per my NLP.

As for everything other than alignment (role info, knowledge of the game, etc), I won't knowingly say anything that isn't true. Now, I can omit pieces of information (ie. if I was a 1/shot COP, I could say I have an investigative role and conveniently leave out the bit where I can only use that ability once), but I won't knowingly say anything that is strictly untrue. The "knowingly" clause is important because if I were an insane cop and my results were reversed, I wouldn't know that I would be saying anything untrue in what I say.

TL;DR, My NLP means, at the very least, that you can believe that I believe everything I am saying is true (possibly excepting where my alignment is concerned).

Now, second, to respond to the allegations that I am potentially a threat to the town;

I am.

Depending on circumstances. If the game plays out one way, I am a threat to the town. If the game plays out another way, I am not a threat to the town.

I have no problem telling all of you this because under normal circumstances (majority vote, vig, whatever) I can't die. Something specific has to happen to result in my death.

Oh, but a fair warning: if anyone tries to investigate me to confirm what I am saying, you will unknowingly bring me closer to realising the conditions in which I become a threat to the town.

Y'all pretty accepting of a player who's vote is worth half the lynching value. If he's town, that makes it pretty easy for scum to swing things waaaaaay earlier than normal, and some discretion might be in order. If he's scum, thats some mighty fine voting power, that seems like it will sputter out over time (what with the gradually decreasing effectiveness, could be a way to avoid it unbalancing lylo).

Obviously no one should ever kill numbers, because then you'd miss out on my wonderful company. Though from a meta standpoint, numbers refused to confirm his ability to me in PM, which hurt my feelings. (I PM'd numbers and Lilan before joining in, to avoid unwanted players in the game.)

Ok. So prior to posting Eli contacted Numbers via PM as well as Lilan, then he posted in thread as per Numbers saying people could.

And Zinger isn't afraid because he cannot be killed. No point trying to test what he's saying since he is more than likely telling the truth (I base this on the last mafia game where he spoke truthfully). Zinger, care to expand on the whole threat/not a threat thing? Because clearly the town only wins when all threats to the town are eliminated. If you're a threat based simply on your alignment, then obviously you'll have to be killed one way or another down the road which doesn't necessarily give much incentive to you to help town.

I'm currently eh in regards to Rubik's voting power. Rather than saving it to snipe a lynch (which would make him look scummy), he made it known right away and confessed to it not having the same power in later days. This doesn't give him any town vibes in my mind because he could have done this as scum just to help get his ability out there as public so he isn't hanged for it happening out of nowhere when he decides to vote. The important point though, that you brought up Eli, is that scum won't be too hasty to score a lynch with Rubik's ability. After all, remember your little mishap with Lord of the Pit in the You Pick the Card Mafia? Yeah. It'll be too obvious if they try for it, or at least it will cast suspicion on them.

More people should comment on this game due to Numbers. This will be fun. Like talking to ghosts or people from different times or realities or something.

I've blocked that memory out under the 'How do I keep losing?!?' clause. I mean even if Im super bad at mafia, surely at some point statistically I have to be on a winning team!

Zinger said investigating him drives him closer to his dark side. You could totes try lynch him, just to call his bluff. I mean in a technical sense, its not killing him. Worst case scenario you have a dead neutral with a shady wincon, best case scenario you have a first day which got you confirmed information AND didnt totally kill off someone pointlessly. Guess it comes down to a broad sense of whether he feels attempting to kill him is 'investigating' his claims, or investigating is...you know, actual power use during the evening.

And given he has a NLP in position, you should directly ask him (I am running the notion that as a non-player entity, he could super lie in response to direct questions from me without violating it).

Im going to play by the edits are disallowed, even though the worst consequences I can think of is being asked by the mods to quietly leave.

Also in my timeline, it was a KoD and Neo scum team, and we defeated them by reversing the polarity and launching them into space.

I have no problem letting zinger live for now.
I also kinda laughed at that last sentence because he describes what would happen, but uses the word 'unknowingly'. But that's just me

Other than that, I have no weird restrictions to my role at least

I read your pm while I was at work Eli. Not that I would have directly responded anyways. I'm still bound by game rules.

I personally see no reason to trust Zinger or to let him live. He's already admitted he could be scum claiming self aligned and rather than say he could become a threat to the town, he just went ahead and said he was. This, to me, says his NLP has tied his hands and he cannot say he isn't a threat to the town currently.

Plus he never addressed my question.

After last game, Zinger has pretty much established that he'll abide by his NLP. So that gives me enough reason to trust him when it doesn't concern his alignment. That being said, obviously Zinger could be lying about being self aligned; however, what he isn't lying about is that he can't die under normal circumstances which he defined as majority voting, vig (as far as what he directly named). It'll be easier to narrow down this with actual questions though.

@Zinger: If a majority of votes are on you, will you be lynched today(Day1)? Also, if a player uses a night kill ability, an ability that allows them to kill a player they target, will it kill you if used on you tonight(Night1)?

While I am of the mindset that Zinger does have to die, it'll have to be later as today will just be a waste of our lynch ability if used on him. Rather than lynching him, we have 9 other players total to look at (8 if you exclude yourself and Zinger) for mafia aligned players.

I find it very suspicious that you would brush away attempting to lynch a player who has admitted to being a threat to the town, which is exactly what town should be playing for. Scum, not so much, because scum isn't going to care about a threat they may or may not need to kill this early in the game.

I'm going to point a couple of questions at nobody (KoD) inparticular.

You do realize that any situation that is even just slightly beyond normal allows Zinger to create the misnomer that he's unkillable, right? Let's say he's a Majority +1 lynch, a normal lynch (majority) won't kill him. One more vote will. But he's allowed to say what he said per his NLP despite the fact that he's still mightily vulnerable.

You do realize that you are assuming attempting to lynch Zinger will result in a no lynch without any stated information leading you to such a conclusion, right? For all you know day may continue on unimpeded until deadline. A mod event may occur in which votes on Zinger are reset and day continues.

Also you do remember this is a bastard game, right? Just because Zinger believes something to be true, that doesn't mean it is guaranteed to be true. He may be laboring under the impression he's invulnerable when he's really not.

Yours (and Scar's) immediate dismissal of Zinger is highly disconcerting given what he's claimed so far. He's going to have to die before the game is over. This much is almost a guarantee. Luckily he's presented himself early and we can take the early opportunity to handle the situation before we run into a late game problem where we don't have time to deal with a self aligned. Both you and Scar are experienced enough to know better than that, which makes me believe either one or both of you are also threats to the town.

Now the correct course of action in this situation is not to "Lulz, Zinger, do whatever you want" but to attempt to pry as much information out of Zinger as possible, taking as much advantage of his NLP as we can. The more we know about his role, the more we can watchdog him if we do decide he's not currently a threat. As it stands right now he alone knows if he is and what cues need to be looked at for his turn. This is not of benefit to the town. If we don't know what turns him, we cannot know if he turns on us mid game. If Zinger doesn't want to cooperate with an info dump, town should be doing everything in it's power to see him dead, under the assumption that he's already a threat.

I brush away the notion of lynching him today due to his NLP. Can he wiggle around with his NLP in regards to what he claimed? Sure, which is why we use his NLP to narrow down what it is he has mentioned. That's why I directed questions to him in regards to being lynched today by a majority of votes and being killed by a player tonight via an ability. A majority of votes can range from 50 + 1 to any number of votes beyond that up to and including all votes. So for Zinger to answer no to the lynching question would entail he is fully aware he's answering based on the idea that any number of votes including and beyond 50 +1 is a majority. If he can be lynched by your example, yet answers no to my question, then he is knowingly lying regardless of how he justifies it to himself. The night kill one is self explanatory.

That being said, due to the previous game, I have no reason to not trust what Zinger said in regards to his being unkillable today. So rather than even try testing his claim and potentially wasting a lynch (note: I do believe it will be a waste as I personally do believe that Zinger is unkillable right now) I'd rather focus on others today with a better chance of voting someone who is mafia aligned as opposed to Zinger.

As for mafia, they'll be content one way or another whether or not Zinger is the focus. Zinger makes for a convenient distraction and wasted time should town try to kill him when he can't be killed. That's a lynch that doesn't go towards someone who may be mafia aligned.

Your second question raises a good point.

@Zinger: If you were to be lynched today, would something be triggered related to your role aside (not including that you won't die)?

@Numbers:

Indeed, it is a bastard game. So you're putting forth the idea that the mod will have lied to us in our role PMs eh? Well if that is the case, then how do we know that the mod hasn't lied to us with the rules as well? Because the mod said so? Until such a time comes where I have reason to suspect that role PMs are not sacred (meaning the mod lied in them), I will operate under the assumption that role PMs are 100% true.

As it stands right now Zinger isn't doing whatever he wants. If anything he's volunteering information that he doesn't have to volunteer which gives town more knowledge than it previously had. Also, I've taken it upon myself to already throw questions to gauge more about Zinger's role. Something you're talking about, but not doing yourself. Well, kinda. Your approach is let's use the town's Day 1 lynch on him to make sure what he is saying is true. Were he not potentially unkillable (something I am unwilling to test as I have no reason to doubt role PMs contain lies at this time as well as given Zinger's NLP being in use), then I'd be fully on board for killing him off simply for being self aligned as I started off when I first mentioned Zinger. Instead, though, I'm of the mindset that wasting a lynch on him is something the mafia would want. So your approach, Numbers, rubs me a little in the wrong way.