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 Post subject: Re: Acid Moss
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:42 pm 
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Empo wrote:
And also ruin the whole rarity thing since most 1-offs are more than 3 mana. The only good thing that would come out of it is that people would be forced to for more consistancy.... which leaves them aggro is only choice.


I don't see that at all... Aggro can't compete at all right now. I don't think it's gotten any better with this release and I was curb stomping aggro all last season. I'd be all about a card or two which specifically hates on midrange. Right now midrange is king, and has been for the whole game so far.

Every single fully viable deck right now is basically midrange of one type or another.


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 Post subject: Re: Acid Moss
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:11 pm 
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T1 goblin glory chaser -> T2 infectious bloodlust -> T3 Goblin glory + infectious says hi ...

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 Post subject: Re: Acid Moss
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:21 pm 
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yaay a dream hand can win a game, big surprise

that in no way represents the average hand though


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 Post subject: Re: Acid Moss
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:56 pm 
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I feel totally selfish saying this, but I don't miss aggro at all. I get (and agree with) that having viable aggro strategies around keeps late game decks honest.. it would be better for the good of the game. Still though.. F aggro. After Boros/Selesnya Tokens last year.. I don't find myself missing those games AT ALL.. not even a little, tiny bit. I like long games.. and Timmy creatures.. and I'm really looking forward to this meta.

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 Post subject: Re: Acid Moss
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:04 pm 
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yaay a dream hand can win a game, big surprise

that in no way represents the average hand though


You're right...sometimes that T3 Goblin Glory Chaser is an Elite Vanguard. :takei:

Seriously, that is a pretty good draw, and honestly aggro hasn't been the biggest winner so far out of the 2 sets we've gotten.

Mid-range was king last set, and this set it is looking like Ramp is the archetype to beat (which I feel would have been the same even without Magical Acid-Trip being in the pool). Aggro can hold it's own, but I feel if Ramp does not respect the damage output of a good draw RDW and Rakdos can have, Aggro has a very good chance most games, barring drawing Radiant Flames. But to properly respect that, ramp has to take on a level of risk against the mirror and control.

As much as I do love control, I do not relish going back to the days of 2 control players playing draw-go until one of them HAS to play their win condition (and then ultimately lose).

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 Post subject: Re: Acid Moss
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:06 pm 
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I feel totally selfish saying this, but I don't miss aggro at all. I get (and agree with) that having viable aggro strategies around keeps late game decks honest.. it would be better for the good of the game. Still though.. F aggro. After Boros/Selesnya Tokens last year.. I don't find myself missing those games AT ALL.. not even a little, tiny bit. I like long games.. and Timmy creatures.. and I'm really looking forward to this meta.


Man, I hear ya.

The problem with those token decks is we really had no counter to those decks ability to just go absolutely **** on us in terms of numbers.

Oh, just to have had access to 4 copies of Boiling Earth in 2015...

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 Post subject: Re: Acid Moss
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:17 pm 
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DJ0045 wrote:
felbatista wrote:
DJ0045 wrote:

I don't think it's believable. No way you're overcoming life gain with that deck. You might get a lucky blow out, but that's going to be 1 in 20 in that matchup.

Basically, the META needs a strong control deck in order to beat ramp, IMO.


Ramp has all the tools it needs to beat Control. It's a deck that does nothing but setup until turn 4/5. The correct counter to that is good ol' aggro, and that's what we're lacking.


I totally disagree... This type of ramp deck is what I'd build to counter aggro. I don't think aggro would stand a chance. Control? Maybe... Combo? Possibly... Not aggro. Not against life gain ramp with big stuffs.


Again, speding turns 3 and 4 not impacting the board is how you lose a game to a good aggro deck (a thing we don't have). In Standard, the Eldrazi Ramp deck only became playable when people stopped playing Atarka Red, which is a similar scenario to what we have in Duels.

Also, agreed, the pool needs targeted discard. And a big lategame Blue draw spell.

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 Post subject: Re: Acid Moss
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:23 pm 
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Fwiw t1 Jadi Offshoot, t2 Perilous Myr is enough already... Then they just keep gaining life, shrug. I don't know, I'm not even able to play.

That said, neither of those plays seem bad for that deck. There may even be better.

Glad you're with me on the rest.


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 Post subject: Re: Acid Moss
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:44 pm 
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Perilous Myr is rarely played right now. I see it mostly in RDW, oddly enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Acid Moss
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:47 pm 
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Kryder wrote:
Perilous Myr is rarely played right now. I see it mostly in RDW, oddly enough.


That just means they don't even need it, but if aggro were more of a threat, they'd be able to add more answers. Also, people playing Myrs in rdw is silly, but that's just my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Acid Moss
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:49 pm 
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I was going to say that. No one plays Myr now. The defensive decks are just packing removal to carry them through the early game.

I feel like you're missing my point, DJ. I'm not talking about the aggro we have right now. I'm talking about a theoretical good aggro deck that we don't have, with cards we don't have. The aggro cards we have are somewhat underpowered, that's why the start you mentioned feels good.

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 Post subject: Re: Acid Moss
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:52 pm 
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felbatista wrote:
I was going to say that. No one plays Myr now. The defensive decks are just packing removal to carry them through the early game.

I feel like you're missing my point, DJ. I'm not talking about the aggro we have right now. I'm talking about a theoretical good aggro deck that we don't have, with cards we don't have. The aggro cards we have are somewhat underpowered, that's why the start you mentioned feels good.


Believe me, I'm with you man. I think aggro is getting the shaft. Always one tool too few, and not getting much help. But then again, so is control, combo, etc...

I really wish we'd have gotten Hangarback Walker tbh.


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 Post subject: Re: Acid Moss
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:56 pm 
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Hangarback Walker is an awesome card... that would be present in pretty much every deck under the sun if it was in Duels. I'm not sure that would be healthy.

Combo is good now, if you consider Ramp a combo deck.

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 Post subject: Re: Acid Moss
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:40 pm 
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Kryder wrote:
As much as I do love control, I do not relish going back to the days of 2 control players playing draw-go until one of them HAS to play their win condition (and then ultimately lose).

ah the good old days :)


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 Post subject: Re: Acid Moss
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:45 pm 
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felbatista wrote:
Hangarback Walker is an awesome card... that would be present in pretty much every deck under the sun if it was in Duels. I'm not sure that would be healthy.

Combo is good now, if you consider Ramp a combo deck.


I don't, but maybe I should. I think of all of this as predominantly mid range, I'm probably wrong though. Hangarback would just be a 2-of, I think it would aggro more than hurt it. What do you think we should have gotten for aggro?


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 Post subject: Re: Acid Moss
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:53 pm 
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DJ0045 wrote:
felbatista wrote:
Hangarback Walker is an awesome card... that would be present in pretty much every deck under the sun if it was in Duels. I'm not sure that would be healthy.

Combo is good now, if you consider Ramp a combo deck.


I don't, but maybe I should. I think of all of this as predominantly mid range, I'm probably wrong though. Hangarback would just be a 2-of, I think it would aggro more than hurt it. What do you think we should have gotten for aggro?


From BfZ or in general?

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 Post subject: Re: Acid Moss
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:55 pm 
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felbatista wrote:
DJ0045 wrote:
felbatista wrote:
Hangarback Walker is an awesome card... that would be present in pretty much every deck under the sun if it was in Duels. I'm not sure that would be healthy.

Combo is good now, if you consider Ramp a combo deck.


I don't, but maybe I should. I think of all of this as predominantly mid range, I'm probably wrong though. Hangarback would just be a 2-of, I think it would aggro more than hurt it. What do you think we should have gotten for aggro?


From BfZ or in general?


BfZ and origins... In general is way too broad, IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Acid Moss
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:03 pm 
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DJ0045 wrote:
felbatista wrote:
DJ0045 wrote:

I don't, but maybe I should. I think of all of this as predominantly mid range, I'm probably wrong though. Hangarback would just be a 2-of, I think it would aggro more than hurt it. What do you think we should have gotten for aggro?


From BfZ or in general?


BfZ and origins... In general is way too broad, IMO.


Not sure. Both sets are rather bad as far as aggro goes. We got most of the good cards from there. The aggro decks of Standard right now run mostly KTK-block cards.

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 Post subject: Re: Acid Moss
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:01 pm 
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Well IMO goblin piledriver would have been interesting, but I was thinking Walker would be more universally balanced. Really useful for aggro, but still playable in other builds. (There's not much though).


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 Post subject: Re: Acid Moss
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:08 pm 
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Walker is not very good in aggro. For 2 mana, you get a Doomed Traveler that you need to tap to grow.

Piledriver would be more an annoyance than a strong option. Kinda like what Moss is for Ramp.

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