Unvote. Vote: True

Yeah, I think this is a little more prominent than probability talk. True's saying he's pushing for claims because he's going to drop some kill action. Yet he wants us to believe he's town aligned but is pushing for a claim from another player he says he believes is town aligned. It doesn't add up. If True were town he wouldn't care what claims other town have to make because their being town would preclude them from the possible hit list. So he's either lying and doesn't believe Rag is town, he's not town and is looking to off what he believes to be town power roles, or he simply doesn't care if he's shooting town or not because of "conditions". In any of those events, I'm perfectly fine with a True lynch.

@True, Rag's logic is why his argument is flawed. If his logic wasn't flawed, his argument would be right. That's basic logic. But I get the impression you don't care about any of this. This is just a means to an end for you. The only thing you care about is generating claims any way you can. I'm not sure what your end game is, but I'm pretty sure that if you keep on your current course of action, the person in a claim or die situation will be you.

In order of posts that have appeared:

@Zinger:

1.) It's not all that bad of an idea if you think it out. If I truly am scum with Scar and I have a protect ability as scum, then only one death will result going into tonight: Neo's (assuming you are talking about having Neo target one of Scar or I and then us using the mafia NK to hit Neo to try and prove our townieness through Neo's death). If you're talking about Neo targeting someone else and me, as scum, using my protect ability that has no restrictions, then only one death will come from tonight: Either Neo or someone else from the mafia NK. Except for the situation where Neo's death is caused by the mafia NK due to Neo directly targeting either Scar or I and I use my protect ability to prevent it, there is less of a benefit to mafia just preventing Neo's NK on anyone else as it will result in Neo's death while the NK can be used on that person he hit. If the goal is to throw the game into a state of WIFOM, that was already accomplished by my not having been killed at night and going into today so mafia could have me lynched simply for lying (something you immediately opened with for today).

2.) In the scenario where Scar and I are both town, you can't possibly know that mafia won't kill us, unless you are scum planning to do that yourself. As it stands, if Scar and I are not lynched today and someone else is that is not Neo, that puts us at 7 remaining. At night Neo will use his ability on a stated individual and let's say Neo wiffs on his ability (mafia will know he wiffs if he picks town). That means Neo's death will result in 6 remaining. Still have to account for the mafia NK. That would mean, before going into LyLo, town will have Scar/KoD/Neo's target as town. Scar and KoD will view all each of them as town. Factor in that Rag's ability netted Numbers and that's 4 people that Scar and KoD will look at as town. Scum can't kill off the last person that isn't involved in any of this because if they do, that leaves the two remaining scum with the 4 people that are all townie in some point of view for reasons concerning what has happened to them. That would mean that, barring Rag being scum, Scar and KoD would know who the two remaining mafia are. Then it becomes a argument to convince the two other townies who to vote for -- either Scar/KoD or one of the two remaining scum. At this point scum have to get a lynch on KoD or Scar to win by working together.

In short, I don't see it at all that likely that scum would neglect to hit town who are trying to confirm one another. The WIFOM move is there is they want to hit whoever Neo targets, but I don't believe that anyone would be that stupid to do that.

By the by, town has won some games like Mafia MTG: You Pick the Card. Your addition of town really needs to win one of these games seemingly implies they don't win.

As for the scum team voting Fruit:

I made it perfectly clear what I would aim for, and I went with Garen first since Niklor was voting for Garen (one of the inactives). Scar decided to go with Fruit for what reason I don't know; however, since Neo is going along with it, then I'm going to put my support behind it because that means more votes to help secure a non-Scar lynch. But no, you must be right. Scum obviously want to be so obvious with their uncoordinated efforts to draw as much attention to themselves as possible (/sarcasm).


It wouldn't be a handful of confirmed town you go into LyLo with if Scar is lynched. It's one because whoever Neo targets will be targeted by the mafia to die. And going into D4 with one confirmed town and lurkers won't guarantee a Town victory. I won't say I'm surprised that you are glossing over this (or just not acknowledging it), but if Scar is lynched and Neo targets someone like -- huh this never crossed my mind and is worth mentioning -- you, then going into LyLo leaves two lurkers (Garen and Fruit) that town has to deal with. There is nothing concrete to work off of in regards to lurkers and comes down to a contest of who can be convinced to vote for who (and that's assuming both of them are not town otherwise the raises the issue as to who is scum that voted for Numbers to bus him).

Looking at it from that perspective, it's actually in the mafia's favor to get rid of the "confirmed" towns as best they can so they can go into LyLo with lurkers to throw votes at. This, and I say this for your benefit Rag, is assuming that scum have actually been active (like Numbers has been) and would entertain a scum Zinger who is doing exactly as he said he has done in a past mafia game. And I say scum Zinger rather than Niklor because Numbers would have been fine had Niklor not steered attention back to lynching Numbers.

So it looks something like this -- scum teams of either:

KoD/Scar
Zinger/Fruit(or)Garen
Fruit/Garen

Rag, Nik, and Neo are excluded. Rag for nailing Numbers. Nik for steering the lynch back onto Numbers. And Neo for his ability usage that will show he is town while confirming another town.


Zinger


Earlier you were telling us that Scar must be lynched because if not then mafia would totally not kill Scar or I (if we're both town) to throw the game into a state of WIFOM. For someone who says they don't know what the scum are thinking, you sure talk like you know what they are doing.

Zinger



You know, this gave me cause to go back to look at the situation regarding TB being voted.



There were a good 15 or so posts between my vote on TB and TB claiming. Actually let me count to be sure.

Ok, it's ~20 posts excluding Rubik's vote counts, my mistake post where I had to unvote vote properly, and Garen's post that occurred before the post where I actually voted properly.

Now prior to TB claiming, Numbers never once made an attempt to vote for him. All TB did before then was state his viewpoint concerning his logic of the situation. I was more vocal towards TB than Numbers ever was and indeed Numbers only addressed TB once to comment on how Rag's logic was flawed and for TB to use that logic made what he was saying flawed (essentially). I would urge people to actually follow the flow of those posts if they have not done a recent reread yet. Anyway, things change drastically once TB claimed his role. That's when Numbers decided to vote TB.




Note: The important post, from Numbers, is at the bottom of the spoiler list. When Numbers voted TB, he never cited reasons about us being able to control TB's kills with requests. His entire reason for voting was taken from the reasons I put forth for voting TB since I continually hammered on TB about the contradictions he was making. I, too, was the one that noted that -- here let my past words speak for themself:



I included my FoS post on TB which was followed up by my vote post of TB (included). I also neglected to put it all in quotes, opting instead to just paste the words into the sblock. There was an error in the tags of my vote post and I think that will screw up the rest of the tags of my post here. So rather than deal with that, I removed the broken tags and put the words there.

Anyway, in these posts I clearly call out and point out the contradictions TB had developed. Later, Numbers uses shorter versions of what I put forth against TB as his justification for voting TB. Nowhere did Numbers in his vote post or later on that day maintain, to use Zinger's words, "if TD is bent on ignoring our requests not to vig toNight then he is an element we can't control."

If anything, the only reason Zinger would cite this is if Numbers told his scum buddies he would be switching from voting Rag to voting TB (with me) due to TB not being able to be controlled by requests (after all, TB was deadset on me and Numbers being scum).

There is also something else important to note here: When TB claimed and Numbers established his vote on TB, not once did Zinger ever comment on the TB claiming vig issue. Instead Zinger elected to keep pursuing arguments with Numbers followed by arguing with me. And the best part about this is that Zinger firmly established that he believed Rag to be town and was defending Rag's PoV in a variety of ways (such as how town can be wrong but that doesn't make them scum). This is extremely interesting because TB fully supported and believed Rag to be town, yet despite this Zinger never involved himself in the arguments concerning TB. Only in arguments with Zinger or myself concerning Rag.

Anyway,

Zinger


Except that Numbers never said what you claimed as he only mimicked my arguments. Your words here only give me the impression that while you are saying you don't know -- oh you know your NLP has an interesting interaction here now given that context.

You mentioned something that Numbers never said in the thread. And you will not fabricate stuff to mislead people so obviously Numbers did say that. Even better, if you know that the mafia didn't want the kill, your NLP would prevent you from fabricating a lie which is why you frame that next part as a maybe to give the impression that perhaps that is something the mafia considered. Probably because that is what the mafia considered and is why Numbers switched his vote. Course mafia doesn't mean all of them. Clearly you like to play your own way -- by arguing with your members to create confusion and the such. Like you said earlier in this thread as a matter of fact. Finally, who knows? You know I'm sure. Despite saying that you can't see the scum chat, that may only apply to while you are typing your posts. Obviously you can't see the scum chat while you are typing a post because you're not looking at it. So it isn't a lie for you to say you can't see the scum chat.

Ending post and continuing with a new post.