What do you think about 2 hydrolash? I guess they are the weakest card. Could go up one swamp + 1 complete disregard for further reclaimer. Thoughts? Dunno, feels like it's a bit clunky.

Doesn't need to go into the Esper territory. I've always been a fan of Hydrolash in mill-control, not so much in pure control. If it didn't draw a card I wouldn't use it at all, but it doesn't have a downside apart from being weak in a control mirror (a lot of cards can be anyway).

The card I'm unsure of at the moment is Ulamog's Reclaimer. If you don't get the counters in, you have one targeted exile to feed it. I've found it to be dead for that reason alone, just never having a card in exile to trigger the effect. I'd maybe replace it with whatever you feel the deck lacks, I might go for some Gideon's Reproach to stem early aggro more (Azorius colors usual weakness). That's my only suggestion, I do like the inclusion of the shambling lands.

Yeah but I really wanna make the reclaimers work. Recurring drawspells/whipes/Edict/ counters is reaaally cool if we can make it work. Especially since with Shepherd it ' like you have a 30 card hand late game. It's also just a wall ^^. That's why I was thinking about the 1x complete disregard, although 4 shrivel should go a long way. also with the small amount of swamps disregard might just be a dead card too often. Then again, it can be pitched to epiphany/tutelage/jace.

Actually I'm also unsure about Gideon. It comboes with Shepherd but Gideon's reproach might be better, for same reason you mentioned. Our whipes cost 5, we need to be able to not at least fold to AVERAGE goblin hands.

Dunno, lemme know how it goes

Gideon is a great beat-stick after a board wipe, and 2/2s to stall the board out helps. His ult isn't too useful, but he works like a mini Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker in control decks. You won't always draw Tutelage/keep it alive so uncontested he is a 4 turn clock.

I'll swap the 2 x Reclaimers out for 2 x Reproach to see how that goes.

You do have Shepherd to bring tutelage back though, which is one of the big reasons she's in there. Maybe cut 1 reclaimer for 1 reproach, so you do have the value option. Yeah Gideon is really strong; I guess it would be hard to cut him over a clearly inferior card unless the synergy increase would be incredible. Which it isn't, it's mainly 'cute'.

There's also Part the Plumeveil to consider. Looks really strong here.

The only change I made to Rabble's deck was swapping the Nulifiers for Gideon's Reproach. They've been doing great vs aggro, and I have enough counter spells I'm finding anyway. Emeria Shepherd does so much work, constantly replaying Vials with a Tutelage on the board has helped me stall games a crazy amount whilst milling too (see screenshot below).

Screenshot: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =562961028

1 x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 x Alchemist's Vial
2 x Gideon's Reproach
2 x Celestial Flare
2 x Horribly Awry
2 x Telling Time
1 x Disperse

3 x Sphinx's Tutelage
2 x Scatter to the Winds
2 x Hydrolash
4 x Spell Shrivel
4 x Artificer's Epiphany

1 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

2 x Planar Outburst
2 x Tragic Arrogance
1 x Angelic Edict

1 x Emeria Shepherd

5 x Plains
6 x Island
1 x Swamp
2 x Shambling Vent
2 x Prairie Steam
2 x Isolated Chapel
2 x Glacial Fortress
4 x Evolving Wilds


So far the only consistent deck that isn't aggro vs ramp I have tried. Now just tuning it to cope with aggro better.

Hey y'all. Figured I'm come pick your brains a bit to get some help finishing off a deck.

x3 Clutch of Currents
x3 Consul's Lieutenant
x3 Dauntless River Marshal
x2 Harbinger of the Tides
x3 Gideon's Reproach
x3 Disperse
x3 Jhessian Thief
x2 Scatter to the Winds
x3 Roil Spout
x1 Archangel of Tithes
x2 Kytheon's Irregulars
x1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
x1 Disciple of the Ring
x2 Guardian of Tazeem
x2 Soulblade Djinn
x2 Planar Outburst

Basic idea is to make holes in the enemies defenses either by bouncing or tapping their guys, while using much the same technique to protect myself from reprisals. The deck runs decently as is though the curve is a little janky, especially the five CMC slot at seven card. Any advice or substitutions I could make for it to run a little more consistently?

What's your mana set up? I'm guessing it's skewed hard to white to try and consistently play Consul's Lieutenant and Archangel of Tithes on curve (and activating Kytheon's Irregulars)? You've got quite a few costs as well, have you had any issues with your own tempo?

As for your 5 drops, what's been preforming the best for you? If you're set on the Soulblade Djinn, I'd consider cutting the Disciple of the Ring and put in Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. You'll get extra mileage/triggers out of your spells (especially something like Roil Spout/ Clutch of Currents which are more likely to use the awaken mechanic the 2nd time around). Even if you don't want to make that cut, I still think this is a deck that Jace can excel in.

Do you need two copies of Planar Outburst? I get that it's a safety net but how frequently do you want to actually draw it? More importantly how often are you actually having to use it? You could maybe consider some other cheap removal options in Reprisal or Celestial Flare?

elk

SO...I just destroyed this "Fear the Land and Sky" deck that was running virtually no creatures. Now, I understand that I began this with a mention of my victory, but that was mainly due to my running a mill deck, not due to the player doing anything particularly wrong. I think there is something to be said for this awakening mechanic combined with a tempo/ctrl strategy with 7 copies of timewalk, essentially, with top of library effects.

With all these sweepers.. these white-ish aggro decks really could've used a Safe Passage type of effect.

@Garren.. your deck dies to sweepers, and every deck is running like 4 sweepers. You need card draw to rebuild post sweeper.. because you ARE going to get swept. Whirler Rogue seems like a strong fit here.

you mean like this?

Heeeeey.. I forgot about that one!

That's just combat damage though.. not sweepers right?

yeah it is

You are correct. Mana pool leans significantly towards white, primarily for Kytheon's Irregulars activation. Only real issue as far as tempo goes is more often then not not being able to play Scatter to the Winds on turn three - getting WW out early just takes priority. And yeah this can bite me somewhat with the five UU cards. I'll probably cut them down for something.

Soulblade Djinn is basically there to be another flying beat-stick that occasionally buffs everyone else as well. I'd have no opposition to him being removed for something both easier to cast and cheaper. Looking back I actually thought Jace, Vryn's Prodigy was already in the thing. I'll definitely be looking for a cut somewhere for him to find a spot.

Solid point. Hmm. Pulling one out and replacing it with some card draw mechanic may work. Keeps me being reasonably able to have it on hand when needed while still supporting other endeavors.

Fair point. Card draw does seem to be something this deck could use quite well. Definately something I will look into. Perhaps shuffle around a few cards to grab a few more counters to help with the Sweeper issue as well. Whirler Rogue is a suggestion I like - especially since his ability to grant evasion works pretty well with other cards like Jhessian Thief or one of the beat-sticks.

Thanks for the advice! I'll tinker with the deck tonight and see what changes work.

The Original Deck

Made the following changes based on the advice of people here. Not huge changes but I'm already feeling them - Whirler Rogue in particular has been all kinds of useful. Still tinkering a little to try and squeeze some draw in there but looking good!

-3 Disperse
-2 Soulblade Djinn
-1 Planar Outburst

+1 Clutch of Currents
+1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
+2 Celestial Flare
+2 Whirler Rogue

Here is my U/W classic control build. I'm sitting around rank 30 with it right now, and I have to say I haven't run into anyone else playing quite this. I don't have a lot of BFZ unlocked yet so this list is going to change. I'm happy to hear any comments, ideas, and suggestions.

Land(25)
Island x10
Plains x8
Azorius Guildgate x3
Glacial Fortress x2
Foundry of the Consuls x2

Creatures(12)
Dauntless River Marshal x2
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy x1
Sigiled Starfish x2
Tower Geist x2
Thunderclap Wyvern x2
Disciple of the Ring x1
Hixus, Prison Warden x1
Guardian of Tazeem x1

Other(23)
Celestial Flare x2
Telling Time x3
Disperse x2
Scatter to the Winds x1
Calculated Dismissal x3
Bone to Ash x4
Inspiration x2
Suppression Bonds x2
Tragic Arrogance x2
Angelic Edict x2


Things from BFZ that are definitely going in once I have them:
-Planar Outburst x2
-Second Scatter to the Winds, some number of Horribly Awry and Spell Shrivel, in place of all the Calculated Dismissal and maybe some of the Bones.
-Gideon, Ally of Zendikar x1
-the new U/W dual in place of the gates

It seems to do quite well in the current meta, against all the rampdrazi decks in particular, and also well against all the midrange decks that rely on enchantment combos. I get a huge smile on my face when I counter a Mwonvuli Manascrew-Moss. Without a great draw it's a tough game against aggro, esp RDW, but with the extra sweepers it'll probably be better.

Strat is to stay alive in the early game, playing as little on my own turn as possible, long enough to take board and game control and gain card advantage. The creatures are there for survival and for closing out the game, but I want to be running as few creatures as I can get away with and in particular no creature should be useless late game. Considering splashing black for Shambling Vent and possibly Languish.

The 5CMC creature slots are open to change and experiment, and I'm not sure yet what the best are. I'm thinking that with some Awaken spells, I might be able to go even thinner on creatures. I do like Sheer Drop and Coastal Discovery but the fact that they are sorceries is bothersome...

I'm not sure about the Edicts because they're expensive for removing one card, but they are so versatile against meta stuff like Tutelage, EvoLeap, Ulamog the Ceaseless Nerd. I'm also not sure about Inspiration since it's really not that good, but sadly it's the only card draw available in this pool (gimme fact or fiction or opportunity plx ...), and it's something for Jace to flashback that's always useful.

I am new to this forum but not to the game.

I have really good success with this control build. You have to be patient with playing your win conditions too early. Time is on your side.

8 x Island
9 x Plains
4 x Skyline Cascade
2 x Glacial Fortress
2 x Prairie Stream
1 x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 x Gideon's Reproach
4 x Celestial Flare
3 x Telling Time
4 x Disperse
2 x Scatter to the Winds
4 x Spell Shrivel
2 x Calculated Dismissal
3 x Inspiration
3 x Countermand
1 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 x Disciple of the Ring
2 x Planar Outburst
1 x Oblivion Sower
1 x Part the Waterveil
1 x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

@turnabout: I like your list. It's similar to where I want to take mine. Only things I have to comment on are:

-Do you have issues running into other creature-light control decks and having too many dead cards (Celestial Flares, Gideon's Reproach for a total of 6 copies)? This is one of the reasons I run some utility 2-drop creatures instead of the extra copies of 2-drop removal.

-On the same note, do you have issues with creature swarm decks (ie thopters, elves) that you can't just 1-for-1 with the above cards and you have to rely on only 2 sweepers? I'm planning to run at least 4 (between Outburst, Tragic Arrogance, and maybe keeping Hixus).

-God, why does Ulamog have to be in every deck I guess it does fit quite well here though, even sans ramp.

The creature light decks are not very common so i take the risk. I for myself don't want to play small creatures because i want so many dead cards in my opponents hand than possible.

Swarm Decks are the thoughest. But with my draw spells searching for solutions, the tap lands, the six removal spells and not playing Outburst too early i am in a ok position. Some Games i have won with one or two life.

Perhaps i try one Arrogance but i am not a big Fan of the card.

skyline cascade is worse then an island