I claimed a protective power that can only block mafia aligned kills.

So if Neo is town, I couldn't block it even if I wanted to. Unless you think I'm lying about how the ability works. In which case were Neo to target Scar and Scar doesn't die, but he does, then you'd have cause to believe that I used my ability on Scar.

Besides, since we are able to talk tonight, Neo may have a chance to report on whether or not his ability succeeds (provided he's around to post at the time when Rubik does all the ability stuff).

All abilities will resolve at the end of the Night phase.

Can I put up a vote? Since there's more town than scum, that might work.
Right now, seems like the leading candidates are Scar and Garren/Niklor.
Let's set the vote for Scar or Niklor. Most votes gets targeted.

Specifically, I am voting that you target one of Garren or Niklor at random, without telling us which of the two you target because I worry that the scum team can interfere with your kill. This is different than voting for just Niklor on his own and should be noted.

@Neo:

In order for a vote to work you'd need everyone to participate.

Problem with Zinger's suggestion is that it leaves it open to arguing that there no way of knowing which person you targeted so either of the two could still be scum. That's not taking into account that mafia, knowing you will use your ability, can no hit tonight and still WIFOM everything (just as Zinger has brought up with the specific scenario of targeting Scar). Only difference though is that Zinger is looking for this to fall onto two other people (Niklor/Garen) as opposed to the people he views as most scummy (myself/Scar).

Just stick with Scar as was determined prior to coming into this night phase. Or better yet, let's put a spin on Zinger's suggestion.

Rather than going with what any of us say, do this instead: target anyone except myself, Rag, or Niklor, and don't say who you target.

Reason: Given all the scenarios presented, we're not going to benefit from your ability to clear someone as not being scum. This is due to the fact that if your target is public it leaves open the possibility (as Zinger would argue) that a scum me would prevent your kill and follow it up with a night kill on you (if you were targeting Scar that is). Targeting anyone else, scum would just night kill the person you target (if that person isn't scum). Also, if we go with the path where you choose your target without saying (as Zinger has mentioned), then it leaves open arguments for saying that either of the choices could still be mafia since we don't know who you targeted.

So as you can see, there is no clear way to 100% benefit from the use of your ability (either publicly or without you saying); however, there can be a benefit by making the pool large enough excluding certain targets. First, if the pool is big enough, then you won't be subjected to suggestions from mafia trying to manipulate who you target (in this case if Zinger is scum and having you focus on two town). Second, by excluding certain people you believe to be town or not worth targeting you narrow it enough so as to not waste your ability.

To that end, the suggested list of people I gave are ones that I feel you can overlook when deciding who to use your ability on. You can overlook me because despite either alignment I could be, you would know that I am protecting myself. I would have no reason to try to outguess who you would target out of a large pool of people (especially if you decide to include me in that pool) so rather than risk letting myself get killed I'll just protect myself (course as town it doesn't matter because my ability won't stop your kill, but your ability won't kill me anyway). As far as Rag goes, Rag earned enough townie points (in my mind) for his use of his vote block ability to catch scum Numbers so you can safely assume Rag, of all people, isn't scum. Niklor I suggest because unlike others in this game he has done two things: He has allowed town to talk at night (which he didn't need to do were he scum) and also because of his attention to swinging the vote back onto Numbers that got Numbers lynched in the first place.

Everyone else I did not mention, in my opinion, should be fair game for you to use your ability on (Scar, Garen, and Zinger), but feel free to develop your own pool of potential candidates based on whatever sound reasoning you want to use. The major point here is to not let us direct you further in using your ability (although it is important that you use your ability to clear yourself as town in our eyes and/or possibly nail scum). Whatever pool of candidates you choose, don't bother to tell us. It'll only allow everyone (scum included) to try to plan around and/or try to influence your decision as we have been doing up to this point.

Take the decision solely into your own hands and use your judgement to determine who you will use your ability on. That way no one can predict who you will target. Not even scum (Unless of course you are scum, but if you're alive tomorrow, then we'll have plenty of questions for you to answer so there is that).

@KoD; The scum team is either you and scar or 2 of niklor/garren/neo.

If neo's ability works as advertised and he targets one of nik or garren without telling us which he is targeting so that you can't interfere with it, then it should confirm for everyone by Day 4 who is the remaining scum team.

This is town's best chance to win.

Your suggestion however is ridiculous, but I would expect such of one who is so blatantly anti-town.

Of course, Neo could randomly target one of scar or you instead, but I think you will have much more hesitation using your protection on someone other than yourself toNight, which is why I think a random target between garren or nik ought to be less likely to be interfered with by you,and we still get the answers we need.

In my opinion the scum team is definitely Scar and KoD. This is what I believe as of right now.

If I were confident enough in my ability to convince everyone in an environment where nothign is certain that they should lynch KoD on Day 4, then I would say, Neo, target a random person between Scar and KoD.

But I'm not confident of that, seeing as how I was unable to get everyone to lynch one of them on Day 3.

This is why I am asking Neo to target someone who I think is more than likely Town (random choice of nik or garren, the other, less likely, possible scum team), in an effort to evade the scum team from interfering and successfully getting info that confirms for everyone exactly who the scum team is.

This plan is logically sound, though KoD would have you believe otherwise. Neo is letting himself be led around by the masses. Scum would have more of an interest in actively leading discussion this late in the game than by asking people for their opinions like Neo is. Add to that the ease of confirming his alignment post-use of his ability and you have strong reasons to believe Neo is town. Rag is also most definitely town. This leaves for question KoD, Scar, Myself, Nik, and Garren.

Nik helped lynch numbers and gave us the ability to talk toNight. Garren followed a train of logic that in his mind would hopefully lead to confirming kod and scar as town (a sound plan, but based on flawed logic). I believe these two are town, BUT seeing as how the scum team is either these two or KoD and Scar, then by using Neo's ability on one of them we can confirm that KoD and Scar are definitely the scum team.

This is my plan. Neo please follow through with it.

Zinger - you are part of the masses trying to lead me around.
Just sayin'.

I'd rather target who I believe to be scum, and see what happens. Still undecided, but I'll make my decision in time to send it in.

What about me? Why should you believe me? KoD would certainly have you believe otherwise. Good question! I'll attempt to answer.

1) I placed the final vote on Numbers that put the nail in his coffin. It is fact that without my final vote Numbers would not have been lynched. i also (supposedly) used an ability on numbers that would let him win with the town if he outed himself and his scum buddies. Why would I do this if I was scum? I wouldn't. All of this is public record, you can double check yourself, but that is rarely enough info given that I have been known in the past to bus scum buddies. Let's continue.

2) Connections? I have none. I have buddied up with Rag since nearly Day 1, but Rag is most assuredly town because his involvement in Number's lynch goes way beyond wifom and is near mod-confirmed. I have actively alienated KoD and Scar to the point of no return. I am heavily pushing to convince Neo of how he should use his ability (wouldn't have to try this hard if neo was my scum buddy), and I am RECOMMENDING that Neo target the only other two options of who my scum buddy is (nik or garren) at random, so I couldn't interfere with that if I wanted to. Simply put, there is nobody that fits the bill as my possible scum buddy. This is the strongest reason you should believe I am not scum, BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE!

3) Logic. If you follow the train of logic that I have been spouting since Day 3 you will see that all of the plans I have proposed narrow down who the scum team could be and offer up multiple chances of giving us guaranteed town players. I have been actively trying to scumhunt and identify for everyone who is town and who is not in this game, and whether you agree with my logic or not you have to admit that it certainly isn't pro scum to be spreading ideas and topics of conversation that get people thinking about how we can figure out exactly who the remaining scum are. Shouldn't I be scum hunting in a way that *gasp* doesn't point you in my direction if in fact scum I am?

KoD wants you to doubt me because he knows my logic is sound. KoD knows that he's lost this game if you listen to me, which is why he cares so much about making you not listen to a word I'm saying.

Fact: 2 scum remain. Fact: it is either kod and scar or not kod and scar. Fact: if Neo succesfully uses his ability toNight without scum interference, we should be able to determine exactly who those 2 remaining scum are.

The plan should be obvious.

Neo, look, here's the thing about my plan: if I am wrong in my belief that Scar and KoD are scum, my plan still shows us who the scum team is. If I am right, BAM, we know who to lynch Day 4, but if I should happen to be wrong, BAM, guess what, you just sunk scum's battleship. My plan is thought through enough that it will get you a positive answer no matter how your target flips. Any other plan and you risk not having a positive answer...

I'm curious, who do you believe is scum as of right now?

First, that is your opinion that the scum team is either me/Scar or 2 of Niklor/Garen/Neo. Your opinion is like anyone else's. In my opinion, the scum team is likely to be composed out of the group containing Neo/Garen/you with an outside chance of Niklor and Rag (both of which are possible, but not as likely as the aforementioned as far as I am concerned). Out of everyone in the game, I am of the opinion that Rag is town due to previously stated reasons in my post directed at Neo. Same with Niklor. It is possible, although extremely unlikely, Scar is scum; however, if Scar is scum, I don't see why he would have felt the need to use an ability on me that I confirmed only to have him come out and claim it as such and put himself out in the spotlight with me. Because of those circumstances, he can't be scum to me. And if Neo is being honest about his ability and dies targeting town (or kills scum when he targets them), then that just leaves you and Garen as the scum team (again with Niklor and Rag being outside possibilities). This all from the perspective that I am town (whereas you are speaking from the perspective where you are town).

Second, despite your suggestion I (as scum) could still interfere with Neo's ability since there is a 50% chance I'll target the same person he does resulting in WIFOM city anyway. Hell, technically I wouldn't even have to interfere with his ability since I could just no hit tonight and let him die anyway resulting in just Neo dead and he'd be the only death. Then what? You'd continue arguing that Scar/I are still scum and could fall back on the failed situation with Neo's ability since there is no way to know if his ability was prevented or worked or who is town out of the suggested list.

Or, to put it simply, your suggestion sucks and does not give town the best chance of winning.

And if you doubt me on that, then play it out. Neo decides to follow your suggestion of targeting either Nik or Garen. For the sake of argument, he ends up dead tomorrow as the only person dead (because he will have indicated to us that he would choose between those two). So what do we make of what happened? We don't know who he targeted. He was the only death.

Answer: Inconclusive. You have no way of knowing whether or no I actively prevented his ability from being used and we killed Neo or if mafia no hit.

The main point of this is to showcase, not just to you but to everyone reading, that trying to direct Neo at this point will lead to WIFOM no matter how you spin it. It could be with one target. It could be with two. There is no way to know for sure so long as you hold an opinion similar to Zinger that I am scum (course if you think I am scum, then you already know that Scar is scum and everyone else is town). Trying to deduce everything off of just who Neo potentially targets won't work as was showcased with the Niklor/Garen example. Thus why it is far better for Neo to just choose who he literally thinks is scum, without direction from us, and just use his ability. At best he hits scum. At worst he dies and we don't know who he targeted (and by extension can't speculate over whether or not a scum me used my protection ability as Zinger is so afraid of).


Third, my suggestion is not ridiculous. As was mentioned just in the previous paragraph, my suggestion takes the WIFOM into account and puts forth a way to negate it. One point you kept droning on about tonight was how Neo specifying his target would just put us into a WIFOM game. Fine, I accept that point; however, that point can be extended. Rather than targeting one person you decide it is optimal for him to target one of two people that you suggest. Never mind that you could potentially be scum trying to steer Neo wrong. Won't even touch that (already did in a previous post anyway). Instead, let's say Neo choose who to target out of two people without telling us. Neo dies. Does Neo's death mean one of them is scum? No, it doesn't. Does Neo's death mean both are town? No, it doesn't. All Neo's death indicates is that he either targeted town or was potentially prevented by my ability and then night killed (if he's the only death or maybe there was no need from my ability and the mafia simply no hit). Case in point Neo's death from him choosing randomly from your two suggestions gives no insight into both of their alignments. It simply indicates that one could be/is town while the other is still unknown.

All of that and this ignores the fact that you are certain that Scar/I are scum. Here's a better question (and Neo I hope you recognize that Zinger never brought this up): Why is it you didn't suggest for Neo to randomly choose between Scar and I? You're certain we're both scum, so if Neo chooses between the two of us randomly I may miss whoever he targets because of trying to outguess him, then one of us dies as scum like you want. That's certainly more of an indication than targeting two people who have no connection to Scar and I. Not to mention Niklor/Garen have no connection that would indicate the alignment of the other pending the result of Neo's ability. Personally, I think you suggested Niklor/Garen as potential targets for misdirection. But here is what I can't wrap my head around. If you are scum and bused Numbers, then why would you put your remaining scum buddy (either Garen or Niklor) as a suggestion for Neo's ability at random? Because if both of them are town and you put them forth as suggestions, then that would indicate that either Rag or Scar are your buddy. Course that's assuming you are scum.

Finally, ah you mentioned targeting between Scar and myself. Now here is where you don't make sense. What gives you the impression that I (as scum) wouldn't use the ability on myself when I know Neo (if he went with your idea) will target strictly between Garen and Niklor? No one else has claimed an ability to kill that could be used against me so I would not risk anything trying to use my protection ability to interfere with Neo choosing between Garen or Niklor (or just no hitting at all and giving a similar impression).

Point is is that you are exhibiting faulty logic here. You "think" that I will have hesitation using my ability on anyone other than myself. Ok, so why not target Scar or myself then? With that reasoning, it would be a sure thing to hit Scar with Neo's ability while I worry about myself. Then Scar would die as scum and you'd be right about everything you've said. Instead, given that you think I will be hesitant to use my ability on anyone other than myself, you decide it best to put two people out (I covered this somewhere above in my post) that have no connection to each other and that we have no way of drawing a definite conclusion upon Neo's ability being used on either one.

As I said to Neo, and I repeat specifically here, you're doing nothing more than trying to direct (incorrectly I might add) Neo's ability.

1) So let me get this straight. Your plan is to have Neo use his ability on someone you think is more than likely town despite not knowing if one or both are town, unless you truly believe Scar and I are scum in which case both Niklor/Garen are town. Then, after Neo's ability has been used and he comes up dead, you plan to -- what? Argue that because Neo died both Niklor and Garen are town and Scar and I are mafia? Maybe it is just me. Maybe I am so inept at understanding logic or something. To me it would seem that if you even possibly entertain the idea that there is a chance that Scar and I are not scum, then that leaves open the possibility that others could be. That means that when analyzing the situation between Niklor/Garen after Neo's ability has been used, there would be no way to confirm which one is town due to Neo's ability. Also, despite Neo's ability, this would not give a pass to the other person -- meaning that even if one was town, the other may not be as there is no way of knowing for sure. Not only that, but there is no concrete foundation to base the remaining scum team as strictly Niklor/Garen. What if it is Niklor/Zinger? Or Garen/Zinger? Or, just for the hell of it, Rag/Zinger?

But like I said, maybe that's just me.

2) Logically sound in what sense? Neo either hits scum, hopefully, and it disproves the KoD/Scar scum team theory, or Neo hits town and dies and all it does is leave it open ended as to which of the two he targeted as being town. The other could still be scum. Or if you want to get real WIFOM-y, if Neo turns up as the only death tomorrow it leaves open the possibility his ability was blocked and he was night killed or the mafia no hit.

Also, we can make assumptions about who is town, but it isn't fact. Case in point: Rag could have been scum with the ability to vote block people that killed and did those to setup lynching Numbers to earn mega town pants. That scenario is the most extreme though as it would mean that scum started this game off with that game plan in mind going into Night 1. Possible, sure, but not likely in my opinion. Similar bus arguments could be made in regards to Niklor and even yourself Zinger. Which is why when it comes to viewing any of you as scum, you're the first one in line Zinger.

@Scar: Since Fruit came up as town, who do you think is likely to be scum now?

I said 2 of Garren/Fruit/Niklor.

So...

Not Niklor, Neo.

I should not post at 2AM

Words, words, words.

KoD is trying so hard to distract from the fact that if NeoSilk hits one of garren/Niklor and they are confirmed Town, then he and scar are outed as the scum team.

He ignores the bits of my statements that lead to us finding scum in favour of arguing over semantics.

It's a wonder anyone listens to the man who risked his neck to save numbers. Even if he were town his deductive reasoning would be questionable at best.

Oh? So you don't care to explain that pitfall of your logical plan?

I see now. You fully intend to argue that if one of Niklor/Garen are not scum, then they can't be scum and that means that Scar/I are scum since you are excluding yourself and Rag.

Absolutely. Rag isn't scum. And I know I'm not scum. If Neo dies confirming that one of Nik or Garren is town (it really doesn't matter which) then at that point I will know beyond a reason of a doubt that YOU are scum. I fully suspect as much now, but if Neo follows my plan I will KNOW for 99.9% certain (only exception is if Rag is somehow scum but I refuse to believe that).

Now, you will obviously try to argue that I could be scum, thus making my plan to out you a bust, but seriously that is a flawed plan made on baseless logic. As I already pointed out, anyone who is seriously entertaining the thought that I am scum at this point is not thinking things through clearly.

There is no connections between anyone and I unless you want to entertain the idea that Rag is scum (I have been buddying Rag since day 1 for being pro town and using logic and all that stuff). In the event that I was scum, who exactly would you propose could possibly be my scum buddy? You and scar can't be for obvious reasons. If Neo were my scum buddy I wouldn't have to try so hard to convince him of what I am saying in the open thread like this. And if either of Nik or Garren were my scumbuddy I wouldn't be trying to point Neo in their direction. And everyone knows Rag is town so unless you want to start seriously considering a possible scum team of me and Rag, then your argument that I am scum carries absolutely zero weight.

At this point I know the scum team is either you and scar or nik and garren. If we can eliminate either nik or garren as a suspect by way of Neo using his ability (and not advertising which so scum can't interfere), then we can confirm by process of elimination that you and scar are the scum team.

Or I'm wrong and neo hits nik/garren and they flip scum. Honestly I'd be fine with that too.

So, with my knowing that I'm town, it seems like people are thinking that the scum team would be either:
Scar/KoD
Rag/Zinger
Garren/Niklor

I'll agree that, out of those 3 groups, I now think it's least likely that Scar/KoD are scum.
Rag was very vocal for a while, but has kind of taken a backseat to Zingers comments.
Garren and Niklor have both been very quiet throughout the game.

So - this is a tough call, and, I'm still not sure who I'm going to target.

I could take Zinger at his word, and go with his plan. I can see both sides of it, with him really trying to win this for town, and the other side of him doing a great job of confusing people.

Assuming Niklor has been honest about his other roles, he could be un-targetable tonight.

Right now, and I know there's not much time left, I'm thinking Zinger/Garren/Rag as the most likely targets.

KoD is the one doing a great job at confusing people.

I mean, the guy LIED to protect numbers from a lynch, who then flipped scum.

What happened to Lynch All Liars? Huh? I really don't understand why people are so quick to forget about that.

Neo, you've got to believe me. Everything hinges on what you do this night. Unless I'm wrong about you and you're scum in which case... well ****.

Also, I musta missed the untargetable claim. Going back to re-read Nik's posts because it might be relevant.